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Hi Pat,
I would argue that while this would seem to be correct, it is because of an artificial, imposed preference.
It is my OPINION that the recording companies have, to a very large extent, dictated the tastes of the buying public by simply not making available anything other than what they want to sell. E.G. where do commercial radio get their source material..?
good point. I agree completely. Thanks for making that distinction, it makes the discussion more accurate.
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there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a formulaic approach to writing songs to target them at the marketplace if that is what you want to do. calling those songs "dumbed down" is elitist and unnecessary (sorry Bob!)
likewise there is nothing wrong with being a virtuoso creating music so complex that only you "get" it! calling those songs "dumbed up" ("smarted up"?) would be equally wrong.
we should all create whatever we want without feeling all superior or being made to feel inferior.
so, back to the original question, for me the act of creating music and performing it is mostly an emotional pursuit. if you can connect with folks (or just yourself if that is your goal) and make them smile or cry or feel something then IMHO you have succeeded whether you did it with 3 simple chords or you wore out the neck of your guitar with your amazing jazz hands!
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Hi Pat,
I would argue that while this would seem to be correct, it is because of an artificial, imposed preference.
It is my OPINION that the recording companies have, to a very large extent, dictated the tastes of the buying public by simply not making available anything other than what they want to sell. E.G. where do commercial radio get their source material..?
good point. I agree completely. Thanks for making that distinction, it makes the discussion more accurate. I think it is far more likely that what they have always been doing is producing records, watching what the public responds to and then producing more of that until something new comes along. In that scenario is IS the public who is deciding what we get to listen to!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 06/17/13 12:12 AM.
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I think it is far more likely that what they have always been doing is producing records, watching what the public responds to and then producing more of that until something new comes along. In that scenario is IS the public who is deciding what we get to listen to!
Hey John, I'm not sure if you have a point or not... On the one hand, in the very early days of commercial recording I would think the recording companies probably concentrated on those performers that were drawing crowds. BUT, when the "talent scouts" started looking for groups that were cheap to record then they most certainly started dictating taste... As a f'rinstance, I play in several groups. One is a pretty good Big Band. Many of our audiences include kids who rarely, if ever, get exposed to the music we play. They get blown away by our sound, which is in many cases completely foreign to them. Big Bands cost to record and to hire - a quartet is wa-ay cheaper than a 17+ piece big band... Which leads me to my pet peeve: A rhythm section does not a band make - for ME, ya gotta have a front line too 
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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or perhaps..the ever-present solo pianist...especially if he's Bill Evans! i.e. "April in Paris"...a few posts back....
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Various Guitars/Basses Amps Pedals Rec.Equip.
Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3
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there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a formulaic approach to writing songs to target them at the marketplace if that is what you want to do. calling those songs "dumbed down" is elitist and unnecessary (sorry Bob!)
likewise there is nothing wrong with being a virtuoso creating music so complex that only you "get" it! calling those songs "dumbed up" ("smarted up"?) would be equally wrong.
we should all create whatever we want without feeling all superior or being made to feel inferior.
so, back to the original question, for me the act of creating music and performing it is mostly an emotional pursuit. if you can connect with folks (or just yourself if that is your goal) and make them smile or cry or feel something then IMHO you have succeeded whether you did it with 3 simple chords or you wore out the neck of your guitar with your amazing jazz hands! I should probably stop "talking for others", explaining what they meant... but in this case I will at least say what *I* thought the person meant. When people talk about "dumbed down" music, they aren't necessarily talking about ALL commercial music, because nearly everything we all like is exactly that. *I* think the term is used to describe what happens when the music becomes a MUCH lower priority than the money. I can't verify it, but I've heard of a famous experiment in which a chimpanzee was left in a room with art supplies. He found them amusing and would entertain himself for hours making intricate marks on the paper. So they decided to see what would happen if they positively reinforced his efforts with food. Once he realized there was a link between the scribbles and the food, he'd spend barely enough time to make a scribble before presenting it for food. IMO, the same thing happens with people. You get different results when art is your passion and when money is your passion. But some people who are good businessmen are also good musicians, so its not true across the board.
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regarding the studios dictating what the public hears:
There are LOTS of bands whose music could appeal to a large enough audience to make money if their work was internationally distributed and promoted by the fat cats.
I've often suspected that the ones who DO get promoted are those who are willing to sign a really disadvantageous contract. Then the company milks them for the length of the contract, and dumps them if they try to negotiate a better contract
Hopefully the internet is making it possible for artists to promote themselves.
Last edited by Pat Marr; 06/17/13 07:16 AM.
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"Commercial" is not a dirty word.
Commercial does not equal BAD. I'm not saying that there is not bad commercial music - of course there is, there is plenty of it. But to dismiss it all is certainly narrow-minded by definition.
There is QUALITY commercial music. And to produce it requires a set of skills that not every musician has.
So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".
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"Commercial" is not a dirty word.
Commercial does not equal BAD. I'm not saying that there is not bad commercial music - of course there is, there is plenty of it. But to dismiss it all is certainly narrow-minded by definition.
There is QUALITY commercial music. And to produce it requires a set of skills that not every musician has.
So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".
Duck and cover! Duck and cover!!!!!! 
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So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".
Duck and cover! Duck and cover!!!!!! <ScoobyDoo> RUH-ROH...ROOKOUT BEROW! </ScoobyDoo>
Last edited by Pat Marr; 06/17/13 09:10 AM.
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I think it is far more likely that what they have always been doing is producing records, watching what the public responds to and then producing more of that until something new comes along. In that scenario is IS the public who is deciding what we get to listen to!
Hey John, I'm not sure if you have a point or not... On the one hand, in the very early days of commercial recording I would think the recording companies probably concentrated on those performers that were drawing crowds. BUT, when the "talent scouts" started looking for groups that were cheap to record then they most certainly started dictating taste... As a f'rinstance, I play in several groups. One is a pretty good Big Band. Many of our audiences include kids who rarely, if ever, get exposed to the music we play. They get blown away by our sound, which is in many cases completely foreign to them. Big Bands cost to record and to hire - a quartet is wa-ay cheaper than a 17+ piece big band... Which leads me to my pet peeve: A rhythm section does not a band make - for ME, ya gotta have a front line too Of course I had a point! Let's see if I can state it real simple for ya... 1) Record companies produce music. 2) People buy the music (or don't) 3) Record companies rinse & repeat based on #2 There is of course no doubt that record companies (like all big business) wanna make the most money possible so they will milk an artist or genre as long as we buy it. But as soon as we stop buying it they move on to the next one. But they do not have a crystal ball or inherent knowledge of what will sell in advance. Nor do they have special mind powers to control what we buy! It is all about watching the trends and filling those needs. Of course it certainly helps them when much of the consuming public are lazy and willing to buy whatever is on the end cap!  And with all due respect I personally don't believe the lack of popularity of Big Band music is the fault of the record companies! I think tastes have changed over the years.
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"Commercial" is not a dirty word.
Commercial does not equal BAD. I'm not saying that there is not bad commercial music - of course there is, there is plenty of it. But to dismiss it all is certainly narrow-minded by definition.
There is QUALITY commercial music. And to produce it requires a set of skills that not every musician has.
So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".
I agree 100% Floyd! It has always bugged me when friends say this artist of that artist "sold out" for commercial success as if there was some imaginary land of righteous music production and to try another genre or target the pop charts was somehow less noble! I always call bulls%#t. So Clapton tried some reggae/pop and produced a nice little hit song. And Fleetwood Mac changed their lineup, abandoned their roots and produced a couple of chart-busting albums. Good for them I say!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 06/17/13 03:24 PM.
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Hi John, I guess I'm falling into the same trap as most others do in trying to oversimplify things - there is no one simple explanation for the situation. Nevertheless:
And with all due respect I personally don't believe the lack of popularity of Big Band music is the fault of the record companies! I think tastes have changed over the years.
tastes HAVE changed - and I happen to believe more than a little of the change has been driven by the big labels. YMMV I do think it's telling that younger people who hear us for the first time generally enjoy the genre and start coming back for more.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Hi Lawrie, Yeah, me too! I'm always hoping for one single theory of music and music business to unite them all!! It is really nice to hear that young folks come to hear you and enjoy the music. Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days!
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<snip> Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days! Ain't that the truth! 
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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It is really nice to hear that young folks come to hear you and enjoy the music. Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days! I was in a bigband, local, we played an outdoor parks concert near the beach, there was this large crowd of young people dressed like punk rockers there, by the end of our set they were partying to the music something wild. Looked out there during one of the encore numbers and saw this large group of kids who were pogo dancing and some were even slam dancing to -- "In the Mood" Stick together guys, we can all sneak out the back way... --Mac
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Hi Lawrie, Yeah, me too! I'm always hoping for one single theory of music and music business to unite them all!! the closest thing I've found to a "unified theory" of music is Peter Gannon's tag line... It is really nice to hear that young folks come to hear you and enjoy the music. Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days! <broken record> which is part of thereason why I'm specifically gearing up to play music for baby boomers. It isn't just recorded music the young 'uns won't pay for. They are conspicuously absent from most of the live music venues I've attended recently. My son says its because people his age would rather stay home and stream netflix. Boomers, on the other hand, not only pay for their recorded music, they also go out to hear it. (at least, that's been my observation) </broken record>
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