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Hey all you jazz guitarists and other interested parties reported to be hanging out somewhere on these Forums: SPOILER ALERT: Eligibility for this little wine tasting requires that you have not visited the original User Forum postings of the two tunes, below.. Both of these tunes were played on 17" archtop guitars with a single mounted (Gibson-style humbucking) pickup. One of them was strung with roundwound strings, the other with flatwound. Playing and recording conditions were identical for both, e.g. I don't use a pick, rather I played both with my thumb and fingers. All you are asked to do is tell which is which, or reply that they are indistinguishable in sound. Take a couple o' sips of each and get back to me with your definitive answer. https://soundcloud.com/aleckrand/bye-bye-blackbirdhttps://soundcloud.com/aleckrand/blues-for-mariodThanks for your participation. The results may turn out to be extremely valuable. Aleck
Sweetwater Creation Station. BIAB 2018, Mixcraft 8 Pro Studio, Izotope Nektar 2, Ozone 8, KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil Artis 7, Crumar MOJO, Hammond XK-3, BASSES (fretted & fretless by Ibanez, LTD, Warwick. GUITARS by Guild, Gretsch, Ibanez, Eastwood (12 string)
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Aleck,
I really can't tell for sure, but I'll take a stab at it.
Blackbird is flat wound, ... Blues is round.
Very nice playing on both.
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You would have to MIC the guitars in order for someone to really be able to hear the difference between flatwound and roundwound string choice. And back off of the amplifier distortion, plus digitally record at a bit lower gain staging.
I run my L5 with flatwounds, but I also run a great little "lawsuit" japanese ES-175 clone that features a spruce top with roundwounds. On the neck pups, both being basically mini humbucker designs, what comes out of amp only via tha pups doesn't really change in sound all that much, I find I can duplicate the old fashioned swing style comping (inside chord comp stuff) on either string style. Same goes with single note bop lyrics and phrasing. But heck, I can also get those same sounds using my Strat or Tele as well, more or less.
Anyway, the two recordings given, well, the gainstaging and amp distortion issues are different in each, with all that tone tweaking (perhaps in an attempt to mask), it could be either way to my ears.
The most thing that came with runinng the flatwounds was greatly reduced FRET NOISE. I don't find that to be a kill, though.
Consider that the great Freddie Greene used Bronzewound Acoustic strings on his D'Angie all those years sittin' there DEFINING "that" sound, with no amplifier, no less.
Or listen to any of the early Pat Martino stuff, where he bops out on a Les Paul strung with roundwounds - and it sounds like an archtop with f-holes and a single Bartolino pup...
"Run what ya brung" -- I firmly believe that a large percentage of the actual sound is the PLAYER, give or take.
Okay, I'll bite:
The Blues offering sounds like the Flatwounds to me.
--Mac
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"Run what ya brung" -- I firmly believe that a large percentage of the actual sound is the PLAYER, give or take.
Okay, I'll bite:
The Blues offering sounds like the Flatwounds to me. Hey Mac, you essentially quoted one of my own maxims, "It ain't the guitar, it's the guitar player." True, the guitars in both tunes were not miked but plugged directly into the interface. But to my ears, what you hear is what came out of the amp. I'm surprised that there were only two respondents and only one correct answer: yours. Aleck
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Red or white? Or did I misunderstand? 
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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I'm surprised that there were only two respondents and only one correct answer: yours.
Aleck
I spent a long time walking where you are walking, my friend. Not only playing and recording the guitars and trying to master the doggone things in multiple genres and styles, but also modifying, rebuilding, building, experimenting with pups both rewound and made from scratch, modifying amplifiers, which turned into designing amps from scratch, using electronic test equipments to find out what the empirical differences in frequency response, gain staging, speakers (yes, the speaker of the guitar amp is a much needed part of the whole system, which is why plugging the guitar in Direct to record is often not going to be able to shine as well - unless proper use of a speaker cabinet simulator is employed), what long strange trip its been. So-called "Golden Ears" aren't a gift. At least not in my experience. They come from the day in and day out work in the craft, until every once in a while the experience that builds contempt kind of gels somewhere in the little gray cells. Keep on keepin' on, I loves me some beboppin' guitar. It is good to see and hear someone else around here who does. --Mac
Last edited by Mac; 06/25/13 11:44 AM.
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Aleck, let me begin by saying how very, VERY nice those two pieces were. Excellent playing!
I did guess correctly that Blackbird was done with rounds and the Blues tune with Flats. Maybe I was lucky, but I've been listening to a lot of cats for a long time my ears are pretty tuned in.
Looking forward to hearing more and more of your stuff.
Aloha,
Lee
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There is a little roundwound sound in Bye, Bye Blackbird. So I believe the Blues is flatwound. But it's hard to detect.
And I listened to the recordings and formulated the above answer before reading anything below the initial post.
Guido
Edit: The roundwound sound is barely noticeable at 1:12 to 1:15.
Last edited by GHinCH; 06/25/13 12:10 PM.
Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
Laptop: i5-2410M, 4 GB mem, Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
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Hey Mac,
Your mentioning Pat Martino the other day brought a smile. Martino and Wes are my two influences. Pat used to have the most wicked sound in guitar jazz when he played that weird yellow guitar - with heavy gauge strings. The instrument had an "organic" look suggesting something that had been grown rather than manufactured. I don't know the maker, but I bet you do. Then, Martino switched to Benedetto and, to me, the sound is just not as good. I've got a (factory) Benedetto Bravo (Claret) up for sale right now. I couldn't believe how much work it took to get the thing into playable condition. So I finally learned my lesson about "boutique" guitars.
Your wide-ranging experience is a real jaw-dropper. I'm sure you're right about the role of the amp and speaker, but something I neglected to mention is that I route the guitar first through a preamp (Presonus Studio Channel) and out from there into the interface. Hopefully, this gives a bit more presence and brightness.
Hey, when am I going to hear something from you man? I've been trying to get collaborators at the User Forum, but no dice. You wanna try something? You can play any instrument you want, and I'll play the other.
Aleck
Sweetwater Creation Station. BIAB 2018, Mixcraft 8 Pro Studio, Izotope Nektar 2, Ozone 8, KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil Artis 7, Crumar MOJO, Hammond XK-3, BASSES (fretted & fretless by Ibanez, LTD, Warwick. GUITARS by Guild, Gretsch, Ibanez, Eastwood (12 string)
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Thanks Lee,
You got it and I doubt that it was luck. And thank you for the encouragement.
Aleck
Sweetwater Creation Station. BIAB 2018, Mixcraft 8 Pro Studio, Izotope Nektar 2, Ozone 8, KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil Artis 7, Crumar MOJO, Hammond XK-3, BASSES (fretted & fretless by Ibanez, LTD, Warwick. GUITARS by Guild, Gretsch, Ibanez, Eastwood (12 string)
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Hi Guido,
You got it. Very good, because I thought it would be impossible to tell the difference. But there seem to be several members like you with turbo-ears who can pick up these subtle differences.
Aleck
Sweetwater Creation Station. BIAB 2018, Mixcraft 8 Pro Studio, Izotope Nektar 2, Ozone 8, KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil Artis 7, Crumar MOJO, Hammond XK-3, BASSES (fretted & fretless by Ibanez, LTD, Warwick. GUITARS by Guild, Gretsch, Ibanez, Eastwood (12 string)
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Har-dee-har-har John. What were you expecting? Pink Zinfandel too?
Aleck
Sweetwater Creation Station. BIAB 2018, Mixcraft 8 Pro Studio, Izotope Nektar 2, Ozone 8, KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil Artis 7, Crumar MOJO, Hammond XK-3, BASSES (fretted & fretless by Ibanez, LTD, Warwick. GUITARS by Guild, Gretsch, Ibanez, Eastwood (12 string)
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Look into a good speaker cabinet or amp/speaker cabinet simulator plugin, Aleck.
The speaker and baffle of the guitar amp is PART of the sound you are after.
There are many good and provable reasons for that.
First, a guitar amplifier speaker is not a fullrange high fidelity speaker. Not hardly. Their frequency response is tailored, even focused, on the range of the guitar's strings and frets.
It is possible to simply listen and tell if a guitar with electromagnetic pickups has been recorded by Direct Injection methods without either he real speaker cabinet mic'd or the good sounding digital simulation of same.
Yeah, maybe we can get together and collab something in future. Gotta redo the recording computer and was puttin' that off in hopes of bein' able to buy something faster. So far no joy on that. And maybe we can coax LEE into it as well. Lee's a monster.
--Mac
Last edited by Mac; 06/25/13 01:24 PM.
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.
>>>...something that had been grown rather than manufactured. I don't know the maker, but I bet you do..>>>
In the 70s, Pat had his guitars made by Sam Koontz in New Jersey, near Philadelphia.
Last edited by flatfoot; 06/25/13 07:43 PM.
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Pat has used quite the assortment of different guitars over the years, about the only single feature that all share is solid body construction.
And he manages to make every single one of 'em sound like he's playing on a big hollow jazzbox with f holes...
--Mac
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