|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958
Expert
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958 |
Hey all you jazz guitarists and other interested parties reported to be hanging out somewhere on these Forums: SPOILER ALERT: Eligibility for this little wine tasting requires that you have not visited the original User Forum postings of the two tunes, below.. Both of these tunes were played on 17" archtop guitars with a single mounted (Gibson-style humbucking) pickup. One of them was strung with roundwound strings, the other with flatwound. Playing and recording conditions were identical for both, e.g. I don't use a pick, rather I played both with my thumb and fingers. All you are asked to do is tell which is which, or reply that they are indistinguishable in sound. Take a couple o' sips of each and get back to me with your definitive answer. https://soundcloud.com/aleckrand/bye-bye-blackbirdhttps://soundcloud.com/aleckrand/blues-for-mariodThanks for your participation. The results may turn out to be extremely valuable. Aleck
Sweetwater Creation Station. BIAB 2018, Mixcraft 8 Pro Studio, Izotope Nektar 2, Ozone 8, KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil Artis 7, Crumar MOJO, Hammond XK-3, BASSES (fretted & fretless by Ibanez, LTD, Warwick. GUITARS by Guild, Gretsch, Ibanez, Eastwood (12 string)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251 |
Aleck,
I really can't tell for sure, but I'll take a stab at it.
Blackbird is flat wound, ... Blues is round.
Very nice playing on both.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
You would have to MIC the guitars in order for someone to really be able to hear the difference between flatwound and roundwound string choice. And back off of the amplifier distortion, plus digitally record at a bit lower gain staging.
I run my L5 with flatwounds, but I also run a great little "lawsuit" japanese ES-175 clone that features a spruce top with roundwounds. On the neck pups, both being basically mini humbucker designs, what comes out of amp only via tha pups doesn't really change in sound all that much, I find I can duplicate the old fashioned swing style comping (inside chord comp stuff) on either string style. Same goes with single note bop lyrics and phrasing. But heck, I can also get those same sounds using my Strat or Tele as well, more or less.
Anyway, the two recordings given, well, the gainstaging and amp distortion issues are different in each, with all that tone tweaking (perhaps in an attempt to mask), it could be either way to my ears.
The most thing that came with runinng the flatwounds was greatly reduced FRET NOISE. I don't find that to be a kill, though.
Consider that the great Freddie Greene used Bronzewound Acoustic strings on his D'Angie all those years sittin' there DEFINING "that" sound, with no amplifier, no less.
Or listen to any of the early Pat Martino stuff, where he bops out on a Les Paul strung with roundwounds - and it sounds like an archtop with f-holes and a single Bartolino pup...
"Run what ya brung" -- I firmly believe that a large percentage of the actual sound is the PLAYER, give or take.
Okay, I'll bite:
The Blues offering sounds like the Flatwounds to me.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958 |
"Run what ya brung" -- I firmly believe that a large percentage of the actual sound is the PLAYER, give or take.
Okay, I'll bite:
The Blues offering sounds like the Flatwounds to me. Hey Mac, you essentially quoted one of my own maxims, "It ain't the guitar, it's the guitar player." True, the guitars in both tunes were not miked but plugged directly into the interface. But to my ears, what you hear is what came out of the amp. I'm surprised that there were only two respondents and only one correct answer: yours. Aleck
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,850
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,850 |
Red or white? Or did I misunderstand? 
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
I'm surprised that there were only two respondents and only one correct answer: yours.
Aleck
I spent a long time walking where you are walking, my friend. Not only playing and recording the guitars and trying to master the doggone things in multiple genres and styles, but also modifying, rebuilding, building, experimenting with pups both rewound and made from scratch, modifying amplifiers, which turned into designing amps from scratch, using electronic test equipments to find out what the empirical differences in frequency response, gain staging, speakers (yes, the speaker of the guitar amp is a much needed part of the whole system, which is why plugging the guitar in Direct to record is often not going to be able to shine as well - unless proper use of a speaker cabinet simulator is employed), what long strange trip its been. So-called "Golden Ears" aren't a gift. At least not in my experience. They come from the day in and day out work in the craft, until every once in a while the experience that builds contempt kind of gels somewhere in the little gray cells. Keep on keepin' on, I loves me some beboppin' guitar. It is good to see and hear someone else around here who does. --Mac
Last edited by Mac; 06/25/13 11:44 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,151
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,151 |
Aleck, let me begin by saying how very, VERY nice those two pieces were. Excellent playing!
I did guess correctly that Blackbird was done with rounds and the Blues tune with Flats. Maybe I was lucky, but I've been listening to a lot of cats for a long time my ears are pretty tuned in.
Looking forward to hearing more and more of your stuff.
Aloha,
Lee
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,492
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,492 |
There is a little roundwound sound in Bye, Bye Blackbird. So I believe the Blues is flatwound. But it's hard to detect.
And I listened to the recordings and formulated the above answer before reading anything below the initial post.
Guido
Edit: The roundwound sound is barely noticeable at 1:12 to 1:15.
Last edited by GHinCH; 06/25/13 12:10 PM.
Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
Laptop: i5-2410M, 4 GB mem, Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958 |
Hey Mac,
Your mentioning Pat Martino the other day brought a smile. Martino and Wes are my two influences. Pat used to have the most wicked sound in guitar jazz when he played that weird yellow guitar - with heavy gauge strings. The instrument had an "organic" look suggesting something that had been grown rather than manufactured. I don't know the maker, but I bet you do. Then, Martino switched to Benedetto and, to me, the sound is just not as good. I've got a (factory) Benedetto Bravo (Claret) up for sale right now. I couldn't believe how much work it took to get the thing into playable condition. So I finally learned my lesson about "boutique" guitars.
Your wide-ranging experience is a real jaw-dropper. I'm sure you're right about the role of the amp and speaker, but something I neglected to mention is that I route the guitar first through a preamp (Presonus Studio Channel) and out from there into the interface. Hopefully, this gives a bit more presence and brightness.
Hey, when am I going to hear something from you man? I've been trying to get collaborators at the User Forum, but no dice. You wanna try something? You can play any instrument you want, and I'll play the other.
Aleck
Sweetwater Creation Station. BIAB 2018, Mixcraft 8 Pro Studio, Izotope Nektar 2, Ozone 8, KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil Artis 7, Crumar MOJO, Hammond XK-3, BASSES (fretted & fretless by Ibanez, LTD, Warwick. GUITARS by Guild, Gretsch, Ibanez, Eastwood (12 string)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958 |
Thanks Lee,
You got it and I doubt that it was luck. And thank you for the encouragement.
Aleck
Sweetwater Creation Station. BIAB 2018, Mixcraft 8 Pro Studio, Izotope Nektar 2, Ozone 8, KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil Artis 7, Crumar MOJO, Hammond XK-3, BASSES (fretted & fretless by Ibanez, LTD, Warwick. GUITARS by Guild, Gretsch, Ibanez, Eastwood (12 string)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958 |
Hi Guido,
You got it. Very good, because I thought it would be impossible to tell the difference. But there seem to be several members like you with turbo-ears who can pick up these subtle differences.
Aleck
Sweetwater Creation Station. BIAB 2018, Mixcraft 8 Pro Studio, Izotope Nektar 2, Ozone 8, KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil Artis 7, Crumar MOJO, Hammond XK-3, BASSES (fretted & fretless by Ibanez, LTD, Warwick. GUITARS by Guild, Gretsch, Ibanez, Eastwood (12 string)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958
Expert
|
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 958 |
Har-dee-har-har John. What were you expecting? Pink Zinfandel too?
Aleck
Sweetwater Creation Station. BIAB 2018, Mixcraft 8 Pro Studio, Izotope Nektar 2, Ozone 8, KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil Artis 7, Crumar MOJO, Hammond XK-3, BASSES (fretted & fretless by Ibanez, LTD, Warwick. GUITARS by Guild, Gretsch, Ibanez, Eastwood (12 string)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Look into a good speaker cabinet or amp/speaker cabinet simulator plugin, Aleck.
The speaker and baffle of the guitar amp is PART of the sound you are after.
There are many good and provable reasons for that.
First, a guitar amplifier speaker is not a fullrange high fidelity speaker. Not hardly. Their frequency response is tailored, even focused, on the range of the guitar's strings and frets.
It is possible to simply listen and tell if a guitar with electromagnetic pickups has been recorded by Direct Injection methods without either he real speaker cabinet mic'd or the good sounding digital simulation of same.
Yeah, maybe we can get together and collab something in future. Gotta redo the recording computer and was puttin' that off in hopes of bein' able to buy something faster. So far no joy on that. And maybe we can coax LEE into it as well. Lee's a monster.
--Mac
Last edited by Mac; 06/25/13 01:24 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,217
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,217 |
.
>>>...something that had been grown rather than manufactured. I don't know the maker, but I bet you do..>>>
In the 70s, Pat had his guitars made by Sam Koontz in New Jersey, near Philadelphia.
Last edited by flatfoot; 06/25/13 07:43 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Pat has used quite the assortment of different guitars over the years, about the only single feature that all share is solid body construction.
And he manages to make every single one of 'em sound like he's playing on a big hollow jazzbox with f holes...
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Last Chance! The Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® Special Ends Today (May 31, 2026) at 11:59pm PDT!
Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PDT today!
We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.
Another exciting new addition is the amazing new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. View the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to transcribe an entire track or transcribe specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®.
There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, and much more!
Upgrade your Band-in-a-Box for Mac® to save up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade packages!
Plus, when you order your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 Mac upgrade during our special, you'll receive a Free Bonus PAK of exciting new add-ons.
If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 Mac Special Offers Extended Until May 31st!
Good news- we've extended our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® special offers until May 31, 2026!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 is packed with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can transcribe an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PDT on May 31st, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Check out the Band-in-a-Box® for Mac packages page to find the best package for you.
Holiday Weekend Hours
It's Victoria Day Long Weekend in Canada. Our Customer Service hours are:
Saturday, May 16: Closed
Sunday, May 17: Closed
Monday, May 18: 8:00am - 4:00pm
Regular hours resume Tuesday, May 19th!
Today's the Last Day of the Band-in-a-Box 2026® for Mac Special!
Order before 11:59pm PDT today (May 15, 2026) to save up to 50% off your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® upgrade and receive a FREE Bonus PAK loaded with great new Add-ons to use with this new version!
Don't wait - order today!
Check out all the new features in the redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac - Special Offers End at 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th, 2026!
Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.
Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.
If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!
202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums57
Topics86,513
Posts805,876
Members40,140
| |
Most Online64,515
Apr 8th, 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean