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In music, what hits the ear is important, not how it was done. I think you have summarized it perfectly with this statement! I remember back when I bought my first Atari/ST computer and started making Band-in-a-Box aftermarket styles, other musicians considered computers cheating. I find it ironic/hilarious that we are all here because we use software to create music for us while discussing whether using a capo is cheating!  (To be fair, pretty much everyone who has responded has agreed a capo is OK.) Auto-tune - now that's cheating I assume you are kidding because this also complies with your first statement! I actually loved Cher's first use of this technology and most recently love how Fun used it! I read where some rock star (forget who) wrote note names on the back of his bass neck. Cheating? Nah. Whatever gets you by. What do Bruce Springsteen, Paul McCartney, Tom Petty, Elton John and Barbra Streisand have in common? They use teleprompters during performances! http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-...prompter-lyrics
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 06/24/13 12:33 PM.
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As others have written, a capo is not cheating, if you can play. A capo is a tool. Even Buddy Holly used a capo on "That'll Be the Day", and he showed more than once that his playing skills would allow him to play that particular song without a capo, but it'd sound different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0VPxYAM698Guido
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It may help the think of the capo as the nut then strive to disregard the fret markers. Your left hand quickly learns to adapt and becomes your eyes. Practice determining by touch exactly where you are on the fretboard. Possibly even paint over the markers temporarily. Trust your touch.
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I've known and also enjoyed the playing of far too many absolutley skilled blind guitarists who cannot see the frets nor the markers...
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One of my favorite musicians to play with is blind. He's the guy playing mandolin on my Soundcloud link in my signature. He's also a really good guitarist.
I started playing with him before he lost his sight completely. Even though his sight got worse by the day, his playing just kept getting better.
He introduced me to playing Dawg music and I introduced him to some classic Jazz tunes. We both already played bluegrass and fiddle tunes.
I haven't seen him in a few years but I do know he's still playing, even though he's been totally blind for the last 15 or 20 years.
In short, ... you can play without fret markers if you have to. I've never had to so I still use them.
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eddie1261
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eddie1261
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Every time "auto tune" works it's way into these conversations I wonder if you all mean the same thing by auto tune. That is NOT that stupid vocoder/talkbox effect like Cher and Roger Troutman and a host of others have used. Auto tune is a tool to pull up a sour note by a cent or two. The talkbox is not autotune, and if you have evidence Cher has ever used auto tune, I'd love to hear it. I can't stand her but pitch control has never been an issue for her. Her taste in men, maybe.... but not pitch.
NOBODY valid goes on tour and sings like a foghorn and has an auto tune effect at the board correcting his pitch from 4 half steps away and I think a lot of you think that is the case from the silly youtube examples like the drunken fat guy singing Bohemian Rhapsody...
So what is you you guys are defining when you use that term?
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Eddie,
The "Cher Effect" as it became to be known, did indeed use an early version of Autotune set to bizarre settings to create that certain sound of what I call a "mechanized yodel" snapping the sung notes ridiculous distances, complete with the digital sounding artifacts that yield a certain "artificial" sound.
It was rather successful, so of course, as is the way in the popular recording industry, there have been MANY to copycat the effect.
Last summer, while teaching the summer church school, I was walkng from the car while the kids were playing in the courtyard and I heard a young lady singing a popular r&b tune out there - and managing to near perfectly mimic the hardsnap Autotune Cher Effect with nothing more than her natural voice. I don't think she even knows what Autotune is, but I signed her up for the Youth Choir the very same day...
--Mac
Last edited by Mac; 06/25/13 11:16 AM.
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if you have evidence Cher has ever used auto tune, I'd love to hear it. As this Sound on Sound Article notes, the Cher Effect on her song "Believe" was done with Antares Autotune software. The producer of the recording deliberately put out the misinformation that the effect was done with the Digitech Talker vocoder pedal in order to keep the methodology a secret.
Keith
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.... The producer of the recording deliberately put out the misinformation that the effect was done with the Digitech Talker vocoder pedal in order to keep the methodology a secret. Every one of us who had seen and heard Autotune at the NAMM show the previous year knew *exactly* what it was, though... Matter of fact, it emphasized the exact same things that we complained about. --Mac
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Every one of us who had seen and heard Autotune at the NAMM show the previous year knew *exactly* what it was, though...
I'm guessing that it really didn't fool too many people who actually had played around with the software because it was easy enough to get the Cher Effect purely by accident while learning to use Autotune.
Keith
2025 Audiophile Windows 11 RYZEN THREADRIPPER 3960X 4.5GHZ 128 GB RAM 2 Nvidia RTX 3090s, Vegas,Acid,SoundForge,Izotope Production,Melodyne Studio,SONAR,2 Raven Mti
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I hadn't even played around with it at that point in time, actually their demos made it rather clear.
Still, geek that I am, I thought it exciting development at the time and looked forward to them being able to make it sound better, purer, etc. And, really, they have. Its just that the Cher Effect became THE thing. And today we have so-called singers who couldn't hold a tune in a paper sack sellin' recordings, apparently to people who can't tell or don't care.
--Mac
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Back on topic, re: capos
Try different models. Make sure you know why you are capoing in the first place. Learn different techniques with the capo.
I almost always capo directly onto the fret-wire with the front edge of the rubber pad. It seems to avoid pulling the instrument sharp, but can crowd your fretting hand if you are playing 'open' chords.
I have a classic Shubb, a Kyser (2nd one - spring broke on the first one) and recently have acquired a G7th Newport model. The Kyser is the easiest of my 3 for one handed adjustments, the G7th stays out of the way the most for fretting at the relative first fret, but is a bit fiddly to get the pressure set right.
-Scott
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I've always preferred the Shubbs. I started using them on the banjo and then bought their capo for my 12 string and six string guitars.
I was trying to figure out how to address the Fret marker issue, put a capo on my Hd-28 last night and suddenly realized that I don't really look at the fretboard when I'm playing.
Keith
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when I put the capo on I always fine-tune to fix any sharpening or intonation problems the guitar may have. that seems to address the problem quite well (except I have to adjust the tuning again when I remove the capo).
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when I put the capo on I always fine-tune to fix any sharpening or intonation problems the guitar may have. that seems to address the problem quite well (except I have to adjust the tuning again when I remove the capo). If you capo directly onto the fretwire, with a guitar that has setup of string height done fairly well, you won't need to do the fine-tune thing before using the capo, or after removing it. I have photos of this on imageshack - lemme see if I can find them.... Here's how to capo with a spring loaded capo if you want to have to tune after applying the capo - apply capo half-way between fret wires:  And here is how to capo if you don't want to have to re-tune:  Clicking on either thumbnail should enlarge the image size. By applying most of the downward pressure of the spring loaded capo from rubber pad to string to fretwire, there is less tension put on the string itself, which is where capos usually pull strings sharp when used like in the first photo. Give it a try yourself. One thing that this sometimes doesn't work so hot on is if you do some pretty strong bending of strings in the first couple of frets. The method I show in the 2nd photo can keep the string 'bent' which is usually a bad thing! -Scott -Scott
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thanks Scott! I do usually try to put the capo just behind the fretwire to provide room for my hand. maybe I need to get a smaller capo and then move it as you have shown!
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I have rarely had to retune when applying a capo.
Those who experience that should investigate the winds around the tuning peg, are they concentric, one layer only and TIGHT around the peg. That is the place where guitars will slip out of tune.
The other factor is tuning DOWN to the target pitch rather than UP.
Tuning downwards can create the situation where the string tension is correct, but only for a little while, because of friction between string and nut. Pick hard on that string during the next tune and it is likely to pull that wee little bit of slack back over the nut - and the string is now flat.
It is glaring, the number of good guitarists whom I see tuning downwards to pitch in the bands around here. If you overshoot, turn the peg the other direction until the string is below the target pitch and then tune only in the UP direction to match the pitch or the tuner indicator.
--Mac
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thanks Mac! I sometimes get sloppy when re-stringing and didn't really think about the problems that could cause. also the tune up tip is a good one that I feel I should have known (but didn't!)
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If anyone is looking for a really good lightweight capo, this is the best one I've found: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/N...CFUaZ4Aodmz8A4QI don't know if most local stores would have it. I had to order mine online.
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