PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Why is not the entire guitar tuned in 4ths ?

Hi all,

Wondering who can point me or give the best explanation as to why the entire guitar is not consistently tuned in 4ths.

I'm back to the basics this summer - and learning 3 different fingerings for the common 1 5 7 3 voicing on continuous strings. It seems to me the advantages of all 4ths would be really beneficial.

Then again - not having ever played in a guitar tuned consistently in 4ths, I'm sure I would discover some advantages to that 3rd between G and B : )

Any thoughts on this ?

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There is a long and obscure history here. I doubt if anybody knows the whole story. My opinion is that Arabic influence, via Spain, has a lot to do with it.

One might ask the converse: Why is the guitar not tuned to a G major chord? Strings 2,3 and 4 give a G major chord, so why not tune the whole instrument that way (DGDGBD)?

Just to confuse things, multistring guitar basses are tuned in all fourths.

Well you can tune your guitar any way you like, IF you can deliver Strong Performance with it.

http://www.stevemcwilliam.co.uk/guitar/tunings.htm

You can do that. You can even retune on the fly, if you're Adrian Legg, q.v. Bottom line--there are no rules.

I've never found a definitive answer, but it seems pretty obvious that there was a practical reason for doing so.

It's not likely to be that much of an advantage for single-note playing, since patterns would be easier to learn, and movable across the fingerboard. It's not like the scales can't be played on that system - ask a bass player (a bass player who knows scales, anyway ).

It's possible that it was an engineering problem meant to reduce the tension on the top two strings. But I doubt that's why - the lute had a bazillion courses, and that held up in a smaller form.

That pretty much leaves the answer as being that it's easier to finger (some) chords.

It's not difficult to figure out the "open" fingering for a guitar using pure fourths (there's probably some errors, but whatever):

A: 0 0 2 2 1 4
B: 2 2 1 4 3 1
C: 0 3 2 0 0 2
D: 2 0 0 2 2 1
E: 0 2 2 1 2 3
F: 1 0 3 2 0 0
G: 3 2 0 0 2 2

Here are the minor chords:

A: 0 0 2 2 0 4
B: 2 2 1 4 2 1
C: 0 3 1 0 0 2
D: 1 0 0 2 2 0
E: 0 2 2 0 2 2
F: 1 3 3 2 0 0
G: 3 2 0 0 2 2

One thing that I notice is that there are a lot of four-finger chords.

Edit: This is an issue because if you need four fingers to make a chord, you won't have any fingers left to use a barred version of the chord. That means that you can't "share" common forms, and have lots of shapes to memorize.

In "standard" tuning, with the top two strings a B and E, you've biased the guitar to playing in the key of E. The main chords using this system are E, A and D. They can be seen as variants of each other - the E is the "main" chord, with the scale degrees (from low to high) are Root, Fifth, Root, Third. It's easy to create variants of the chord by shifting the root on the fourth string to get a maj7 or dom7, and the third on the third string to get a minor third or a suspended fourth. All these variants (E, E7, Esus4, Emaj7, Em, Em7) fit nicely in the hand, since they only require three adjacent fingers to span no more than three frets.

E : 0 2 2 1 0 0

One particularly nice feature is that there's only one instance of the 3rd scale degree, so you only have to change one string to convert the chord to a minor (or suspended).

The A is basically the E form, shifted one string up (a fourth):

You can think of the high E "wrapping around" to the low E. Note that the only thing that changed was the note on the second string (because it's a third, not a fourth):

A : 0 0 2 2 2 0

It still has all the easy-to-finger convenience of the E chord (and variants). Shift it up the strings once again and you've got a D chord:

D : 2 0 0 2 3 2

Again, you've got all the convenient variants of the E chord in easy reach.

Shift again and you get an open G chord, which isn't quite as nice, because you've doubled the third:

G : 3 2 0 0 3 3

With the third doubled (on the second and fifth string), it's much less convenient to convert this "natural" form into it's minor variant. Shift again and you've got a C, with the same issues when it comes to the third scale degree:

C : 3 3 2 0 1 3

So the G and C are much less "friendly" than the E, A and D and their variants.

Shift up another string and you're on a F major, which is a barred E, and the circle is complete.

So... Having a B on the second string gets a finger-friendly E chord with lots of easy-to-finger variants. It also gives the A and D forms, which are almost as nice. Because they are three-finger chords with an easy reach, they lend themselves to barring if you need to create a different chord.

All in all, it's a pretty good compromise.

I like to play in DADGAD as well as standard tuning; my classical guitar REALLY likes to be played in standard tuning but down 1 and a half steps.

This whole song is the classical (except for the drums), even the auto-wah part is on the classical.
http://rockstarnot.rekkerd.org/fawm2013/scott%20lake%20%20-%20detuned%20Edit%201%20Export%201.mp3

If you want to think about alternate tunings a little bit, I suggest looking into Jose Gonzales. His first album has about 4 or 5 different tunings and they really help create different moods in each song.

Another alternate tuning to play around with is the Open G tuning and Rolling Stones tunes. Brown Sugar, some play Jumpin Jack Flash this way, Start Me Up, etc.

Be careful, this can get addictive and you'll be sounding like Keef with all of your songs!

Grab that Bm

Yesh!

Unless it's a Fender Bass VI, in which case it is tuned like a guitar.

One of my friends here at work sold his Fender bass VI in order to fund purchase of his wife's engagement ring. They are still happily married, but he admitted to me that he wishes he still had that bass VI. Wouldn't trade his wife for it - but part of what he sees when he sees her engagement ring is his old bass VI!

My next electrified stringed instrument purchase will probably be one of the following:

Some type of baritone guitar. (maybe DIY turn my old Peavey Milestone into this with a Warmoth neck)
A 5-string bass, maybe fretless.

-Scott

Breaking the 3rd at the B string means having the E string above it, moving back to the 4th break of the other strings.

And that creates the magnificence of the modern guitar's shimmer in chording.

It is also perhaps the reason that the guitar became so accessible to so many, learn a few simple chord patterns "by the dots" and yield an almost instant gratification in the resulting sound.

I've said this before on these forums, time to repeat it, "The guitar is singular in its ability to allow many to make what harmonic sounds quickly that any other instrument requires much more time, study and practice to accomplish."

Something else I've mentioned before:

"The guitar is extremely easy to learn how to play the basics, chords and strumming, but is also extremely difficult to continue on from that standpoint and actually master."


--Mac

I have a feeling that the easiest instruments to get started on may be the most difficult to master.

Saxophone is like that too.

But that's just thinking out loud.

After playing sax, flute, wind synth and keyboard synth, what still makes me grin about playing the guitar is it's ability to effortlessly transpose. Modulate up a half step on most instruments, the fingering is completely different. Do it on the guitar, and just move it up a fret.

Well, when you get something, another thing often gets taken away. It's more difficult to read music notation on the guitar than it is on the sax or keyboard.

I wonder if a guitar tuned in all fourths would be as easy to make chords on, especially movable chords like barre chords.

Insights and incites by Notes

Here are my thoughts. The first 2 strings on the guitar are tuned to notes on the chromatic scale that do not have a semi tone between those notes and the next higher tone. It is the B string that is the issue if you want the turnings to follow the circle of fourths (or the circle of fifths depending on your pont of view). Going from the B string upward, the turnings would have to be F#, C#, G#, D#. An adjustment needed to be made to keep the strings from being tuned to mostly sharps it seems to me.