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Spurred by a post in a different forum....
As a songwriter, it's interesting when I write a song. I have a story to tell or a message to get across so I write...and write...and write some more. I may end up with 4 verses, a prechorus and then the chorus and finally throw in a bridge as well.
I play this and love it. The problem is, the resultant composition with the intro, verses, prechorus and chorus, solo's and breaks and bridges plus the outro, often exceed the normal 3 to 4 minute (max) for songs.
face it, anything longer than 4 minutes falls into the category of too long for most purposes. (read that is not commercially viable in this world of short attention spans) No matter what your personal opinion of that issue is.
So, being a member of the Nashville song writers association, and sending some of what I think is the better songs I have written to them for the purpose of evaluation and criticisms on the music..... well let me give you one example. The Best Christmas (on my web site) started out as well over 5 minutes in length. 4 verses, PC/chorus, and a bridge plus solo) Suffice it to say that this was submitted 3 or 4 times with advice coming back that ranged from "shot down in flames" "more work to do on this" to "this is starting to shape up nicely" .
The main thing in this process was letting go of the "other" material in this song that was not needed to tell the story properly and in a timely manner. Hey, I wrote those verses for a reason.....!!! What do you mean delete them? But in the interest of the song, as they say, if you are carving a statue, you simply chisel away everything that doesn't look like the thing you are carving.... simple, right? Yeah? Try that with your baby, your song..... the song you wrote..... painstakingly crafting every line and now, you must perform major surgery on it.....
Anyway, to the point. I eliminated one verse, then the second one, and in the process, consolidated the lyrics of 2 verses into one that fit better. Then it was lose the bridge. that sounded strange at first, but now, it's not a problem.... I've gotten used to it without the so called bridge that none of the Nashville pro's liked.
So I'm left with a simple ABABB song structure with the guitar solo after the first chorus. The results from the NSAI evaluator? Good job! This is now ready to be pitched. This is an older song and I simply used it as the example for this post.
Had I stuck to my personal belief and said I will not edit this song, it would never have reached this state of readiness in the eyes of an industry pro.
The point being.... it's not what you put in the song, but more so what you leave out that makes the song what it can be.
Thoughts and comments?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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[quote=Guitarhacker The point being.... it's not what you put in the song, but more so what you leave out that makes the song what it can be. Thoughts and comments? [/quote] As I ingest my morning coffee I agree with the above. There's an old adage....'have the guts to cut'. Overall, it depends on our individual goals with our very personal song writing. But, I'd guess we all want the listeners to not tire of our songs/lyrics because they are too long, to verbose or wreaks with cliches. If the mass appeal, commercial music industry demands 3-4 minutes and more concise vs. verbose lyrical content and length then that's what we'd have to adhere to if we are aiming for this 'mass appeal/commercial' market. Me...I've been doing this a long time (as with you and many others here) and have no illusions about where I fit in the musical scheme of things. Song writing is not easy for me and it's takes me time to get a song to the point where I'm satisfied with the lyrics, the phrasing and length. (hmm..are we ever actually 'done' with a song?) I certainly don't fit into the mass appeal genre and only hope I'm not relegated to the 'you totally suck' genre.  Should be good topic for other responses. That's my take on it....carry on.
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You are right Herb.
Someone once said, "on a clear I could sing forever" and they were talking about songwriters. LOL!
Some writers recoil at time limitation as "cookie cutter" or "formula" writing, when that is simply not true. Then they'll go on how this or that huge bands' songs were the exception.
The reason songs fall in the 3 to 4 minute range is that's what the public likes. If the public wanted longer songs believe me, the record companies and the radio stations would jump on them.
People think - write a song, get it recorded by the big act and everybody gets rich. Well, not without airplay. Before you get airplay your song goes to the music director and the consultant. Tons come in every week. If it gets chosen then it goes to a focus group of regular people (listeners). Some get this far and don't make it on the air. Once in rotation, it will be reviewed by more focus groups and still can get dropped. It's all about the listener.
Now in a concert setting, abc act can and do indulge themselves but that's not what got them to those big venues.
If only writing for your friends and family, spare them, nobody wants to hear a song that drones on. People's attention spans in our tech age are growing even shorter according to research.
Think about it, even on a post, if you go on too long, forget about making your point because most people will skip it. Same with songs.
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Back in the 70's and 80's country music was 2:30 long per song. 3 minutes was considered too long. Now days that has stretched to 3 minutes as average with 4 minutes the max limit most radio stations will play so no artist wants to exceed that number.
At the same time country was sticking to 2:30, on the rock side of things the bands and artists were going long.
The Beatles with Hey Jude at 7+ minutes, Neil Young with Down by the River at close to 10 minutes..... and Led Zepplin averaging over 5 minutes....
Having played music for a living for quite a few years, I can vouch that the audience in any given club has a definite limit as to how long they will stay on a dance floor on any given song. And that limit is only a few minutes. Beyond that, they get tired or bored and go set down.
Keep the songs short and keep the people engaged.... same thing with writing.... say what you need to say in the shortest and most efficient and clever way, and be done.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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and of course you have the original version tucked away so when it's a smash you can sell that to those whose who are interested in such things while creating a video called the making of "The Best Christmas" which you can sell to hbo
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Herb,
You might enjoy the Berklee Songwriting course that's free on-line. I really enjoyed the class, and I will take it again when it becomes available. I have it watchlisted. I don't get spam from Coursera. There are several folks here who have taken this and other classes and I think they would vouch that they aren't being spammed either.
Here's the link to the course:
https://www.coursera.org/instructor/~326
As I read your post, I think of the instructor's tool called 'the boxes'.
He talks about each phase of the song, can be thought of 3 main boxes, with the first idea or box being able to fit into the idea or 2nd box, all of which can get packed into the 3rd box.
If you find that a middle 'box' or the ending 'box' can't contain the others, or perhaps the middle box is the biggest idea; then swap them around, trim, etc.
There are exceptions of course. While I love Jimi Hendrix' "Little Wing", I couldn't explain what it means in any logical way - which I think was the point.
But if you have a story to tell and you are using melody and chords to plant it in someone's brain, then it should have some logical sense to it.
Anyways, if you're interested, sign up for a Coursera account and watchlist the course.
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I will make a note to look at that course....free is always good.
Back in the day, lots of the rock bands and some others had 2 cuts for every song..... the radio cut, edited to run in the 3 minute time range and the album cut which was uncut and could run well beyond the 3 minutes "allowed" on radio.
Then there came a group of radio stations which called themselves "underground" stations and they all played the album cut versions. WMMR in Philadelphia back in the 70's was one of them and every radio I owned was tuned to that station. 93.3 FM IIRC.
When writing now, if I'm telling a story, and I usually do, I do basic diagramming of the song ideas into the verses and chorus. I expand it from there. Sometimes the diagramming is simply in my head..... I know what I want to say in the different verses.
The fun songs are the ones where I have no idea what I'm writing about..... I start with a title idea and work up the hook, build the chorus and write the verses...... but not necessarily in that order.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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FYI, they just released the new dates. Starts October 14th. I'm signed up again.
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I just signed up yesterday. Posted in a different thread here....
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Well, as my signature says "perfection is not when there's nothing left to add but rather when there's nothing left to take away." For me this applies to many things in life. In my mixing (and neophyte song writing) when I've stripped out everything that seems superfluous I'm left either with what I feel is the best I can do --- or with something that has no soul...no core and needs to be tossed. Unfortunately I've stuck with too many that should probably have been tossed. It may be easier if like me you are writing from a causal, every now and then, non commercial perspective. I don't have the concern looming over me of what artists, producers, arrangers, etc might think of the effort. Dunno.
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
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I tend to write and then after the fact, look at a song and say, hey, that sounds like it might be commercially viable for such and such an artist. I rarely, if ever, set down to intentionally write for a specific artist.
If I had a writer's deal with a publisher, it would probably work the other way around.
Less is more. Say it in a concise manner with as few words as is possible to paint the story in music. At least that's what I hear at the songwriter events I attend from time to time.
That's not always how I write. But, I can be encouraged to work in that manner. That was the case in the example cited in the OP. Some of my favorite recent country hits are clearly examples of that style of writing too. Concise, to the point, killer lyrics and music.... short songs.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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"If there are two musicians playing the exact same note on the exact same instrument at the exact same time, unless we're talking the string section of a symphony orchestra, one of those musicians is superfluos..."
That is from an arranging study book I had long ago for a class. Paraphrased, maybe, but that's the way I remember it and it has always seemed to hold true.
But as with any rule like this one, knowing the rule well can also be the license to break said rule if circumstances call for it.
In my experience, Less has always been More.
--Mac
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I wrote this a few years ago for the Home Recording forum; it may be of some help here:
Mixing is harder than it seems. Try this:
First of all, get away from the track for at least two days if you can. Avoid listening to anything you've done; listen to stuff you like by other people.
Ok, once you're ready to start mixing, try this method: Bring up just your main vocal track till it's at a comfortable loudness level. Now, slowly start bringing up the other tracks, one at a time. As you bring up each track, stay focused on the sound of the vocal track. If you bring up a track that seems to make the voice sound a little softer, shut the fader off for that track and go on to the next track, always listening to the vocal track as your reference, killing any track that makes the voice sound softer.
After you've gone thru all the tracks, you'll probably have 3 to 5 tracks shut off. Those are your problem tracks. You'll hafta eq, pan, compress, or reverb them, or leave them off altogether.
But listen closely to what you currently have going. Do you "REALLY" need "all" of those 5 missing tracks in the mix? Does the mix sound stronger without them? On the tracks you absolutely hafta have, put them where they don't cover the vocals, using any of the tools mentioned above. Then take about an hour break, get out of the studio, and come back later and listen to what you have. If you're satisfied, shut everything down, leaving all your settings in place.
Come back tomorrow and listen to it again. Tweak till you're happy, shut down, and repeat again the next day. The day you walk in and you're happy with what you did last night, is the day you have a finished mix.
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Harvey,
That is great advice. I have used that method myself. Get some distance form the mix and let your ears have a rest.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Note that Harvey starts by bringing up the track that should have the most focus, in this example that is the Vocal track.
I use the Picture->Background->Frame analogy.
The Vox track is the Picture.
All else is then Background or Frame.
If anything in your Background or Frame is detracting from the focus on your picture, either take steps to soften it, or simply eliminate it.
--Mac
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There have been a few times where I got the mix and it was good. I tend to record the vocals last so they get added to the mix last.
I mix toward the finished product right from the beginning.....
So when I add the vocals I have a problem with getting them to the right level. Obviously if I start pulling track faders down that will change the entire dynamic on the mix..... might as well just start over if I do that... so.....
My solution: I add a bus and send everything in the mix to that bus except the vocals. I can now raise and lower the mix level keeping the relationships and dynamic of the mix..... while now able to fit the vocals in without having to use massive compression to hear it.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I make it easy on myself as I rarely ever have more than 5-6 tracks involved in my final mix. At one point I may have 7-8 or more generations in my DAW of the same Realtrack but that is for cutting and splicing up to a single track that will be used in the final mix. But, I certainly think the start with the vocal approach makes very good sense. And, as alluded, to I keep reference songs that are my favorite mixes of the genre that I'm working with. I try to "live with" them for a while before starting the mix.
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
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I too have started with the vocals in the mix. It's just that I generally record the vocals last as a simple matter of how I work here on writing.
I'm writing the song in BB and then I render the tracks and move them to Sonar, so the tracks are first and the vocals are last.
I start my mixing process at the very beginning so at times it does present level issues when I get to the vocals in the mix. Busses make solving that situation easier. I keep the tracks out of the red always so that if I need to buss something there is no issue with overloaded inputs.
On my sound click there are 2 songs that literally started with the vocals. In A World Without You and I Know You're Up To It. Both of these were JUST the vocals and I had to compose around them.
In my world of mixing, if there are vocals in the song, the vocals are the star and need to shine, so I do whatever is needed to make it so.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 09/26/13 05:02 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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My all-time favorite singer/songwriter said that he had to change his "style" of songwriting in order for his music to be more "radio friendly."
He said that radio wants to be able to hear the hook within 30 seconds to grab the listeners attention.
Works for him, especially after winning several Dove awards and being in the biz for 30+ years. CCM is his deal....
Trax
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He said that radio wants to be able to hear the hook within 30 seconds to grab the listeners attention.
Study Western Music long enough and one can make the case that the same thing can be said for musics composed long before the invention of radio. For one example, Beethoven hits us with his musical hook with the very first 4 notes of his Fifth Symphony. There are plenty more examples. My take on it is that the real reason has to do with our humanity, the way our sense of evaluating musics works, the way our memories work regarding such things and likely a lot of stuff that is so deep it would take a few more centuries of study, investigation, learning and understanding ourselves and the way our brains not only perceive things, but why. We too often confuse correlation and causation of things. In the case of radio airplay, it is far more likely that the rules of the game evolved to be what they are today, rather than the medium of radio forcing those rules upon the songwriter. Of course, the technology of recording also had a hand in that, the original 78 rpm records could only contain so much amount of time per side and the same can be said for the original 33 rpm records, the manufacturers touting the "Long Play" 33 rpm records rather late in the technology's life span, actually. When that became a "thing" - we did indeed have long songs being played on the radio for that particular era. Such may make a comeback someday, as everything old becomes new again to succeeding generations. The songs might get longer again, but the medium will be digital. But even those popular long songs of the late 60's are defined predominantly by their HOOKS. Hooks can be musical hooks, rhythmic hooks, lyrical hooks or combinations of those. Getting that hook out there within the first 30 seconds may not be a hard and fast rule, though, but when the entire performance is limited to the magic 3 minutes and 40 seconds that radio airplay brings to the issue, the modern songwriter should pay heed to the good advice. One will see the situation at hand and proceed to complain about the situation, another will see the same situation and proceed to pursue success from within the defined parameters, for we humans just don't take to massive amounts of change all of a sudden, especially where music is concerned. An old and successful writer once told me that if you want to introduce new things to music - you had better introduce ONE NEW THING AT A TIME - and even then, expect dissension because of it. History of musics bears that out. --Mac
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Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.
Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.
If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!
202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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