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Couldn't remember the univ or the name of the study I wanted to cite when typing the above post. Found it, though. Study proves listeners want hits, not deep cuts. A new study from academia reinforces something successful programmers have known since the advent of top 40 radio in the 1950s: listeners prefer the hits. Conducted by Washington University’s Olin Business School, “The Same Old Song: The Power of Familiarity in Music Choice” finds consumers pick music they’re familiar with — even though they believe they’d prefer less familiar music. For those interesed, the full .pdf is below: http://apps.olin.wustl.edu/faculty/goodman/same%20old%20song.pdf Food for thought that might sway some opinions on the subject but even if not, might cause some thinking about same. --Mac
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This has evolved into an arrangement discussion, but in reading the OP's orignal post, it started as a discussion of song length.
I highly recommend Pat Pattison's free Berklee songwriting course offered through Coursera.org.
It's mostly a lyric writing class, with Pat expounding on various topics, some of which are very pertinent to Guitarhacker's questions.
Pat has this one idea he calls 'the boxes', wherein he describes songs with lyrics should have about 3 boxes, or elements of a story.
As you progress from the first verse through the last, each of the story elements should fit into the next one presented - that is the succeeding story element should use the previous element, with a new detail or twist added so that what is presented as an idea can 'contain' the previous idea. The final box should be a big enough idea to 'contain' the previous two boxes.
Anyways, you might still be able to sign up for the course - it begins October 14th. I am taking it again just to absorb more of the content.
-Scott
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I should hope that the length consideration should be part of the arranging...
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I should hope that the length consideration should be part of the arranging...
Well, I guess it depends on the order of songwriting operations for the particular writer. I tend to write and edit lyrics first. Then the # of verses, # of chorus sections, pre-chorus length, intro length etc. becomes much more elementary. At least, this is what works for me - I realize that there are writers who write the music first, and then add words after the fact. However, in an incredibly informal and unscientific manner, I would say that most of the folks that I have talked to in the past that are prolific (intentional) songwriters that involve lyrics tend to have lyrics ideas and their story to tell, ahead of melody or chord patterns, etc. This discussion comes up always in the February Album Writing Month discussion boards every year. Here's the one that riffed on this theme this past year. http://fawm.org/forums/topic/550/For this part of songwriting, the Pat Pattison class which I mentioned above and a few others on this forum highly endorse, is a nicely compact and helpful course and it's the best price - Free. The first post of this thread doesn't mention how many instrument parts in any fashion. It's about verses, choruses, etc. In my brain, arrangement decisions are more of a task in 'the vertical', not so much the time axis of the song. What are the dynamics like, how do I build them, does the song beg for brass parts, does a walking bass-line seem appropriate for the end of the chorus, should the piano part run only in the first 2 verses and then after the chorus disappear until the outro, does a train-beat drum pattern fit the feel, etc. This has been what I've understood arrangement to be but I'm not saying that it's 100% correct or that there's a correct definition of arranging. Then there are production decisions - what and how much reverb belongs, if any, on the vocals, the various parts, etc. Would there be a useful effect to take a part from mono in the verses and expand it to stereo in the chorus sections, etc. Sometimes, when I get to this, I'll hear a verse that's really not adding to the meaning of the song - it sits outside 'the boxes' and can be trimmed, or maybe there's some lyrics I already edited which just seem like they make more sense than some that I've got in there already. So, again, I would highly recommend taking the Freebie Berklee College of Music / Pat Pattison course to answer the kinds of questions asked in the original post of this thread. For easy one-click access: https://www.coursera.org/course/songwritingSince it starts in less than a week, it might not allow new attendees, but you can add yourself to be watchlisted for the course.
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When composing, I tend to work from the standpoint of development.
So length is dictated by the type and amount of development spent on the thing.
There are other factors, of course.
For example, sometimes I find I've developed in a wrong direction, or developed too quickly, or developed not enough, etc.
I think that there are many different ways that one can think about it, work it, different approaches that can still lead towards the same goal in the end.
I know a lady who just simply seems to pop up with it all at once, and a lot of her stuff leaves me in awe.
--Mac
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Back in the 60's and probably even earlier, the rules were the song could not exceed 2:30 in length or it risked not being played on radio.
Some of the bands made 2 versions...album cuts and radio cuts to get around the rules. The 45 was the radio cut.
Now, the rules are a bit different. Songs can be longer but the SHALL NOT EXCEED length has moved out to 4 minutes. Most still fall in the 2:30 to 3:00 length.
The new rules include: (or so "they" say)
Intro not longer than 13 seconds. Shorter is better.
Be into the chorus before 60 seconds
Keep it under 4 minutes max...less is better.
Keep it uptempo, (despite the fact that the majority of hits are ballads)
It must sound "radio ready" which means professionally done. (this one is true) The people listening and making the decisions have no imagination and no idea of what a song could be,,,,so the song should have the parts in it...intro, guitar, piano breaks worked out and polished, singers that sound like the stars, and the entire song should sound like it is ready to go on the radio "as is".
I don't know how many times I have heard these things repeated ad-nausium at songwriter workshops and seminars. Some are true, some are good advice and some not.
Of course, the rules are there but established artists can set or break the rules as they see fit depending on their clout.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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"It is essential to know the rules and practice following them before the ability to break a rule with impunity can be obtained."
And I'd add to that, "If you break a rule, make good and sure that you break that rule for a darn good reason!"
Those who perceive that rules like these are made top-down and for arbitrary reasons fail to grasp that these things actually evolved over time as the industry found out what people listened to and what they didn't. It is indeed market-driven.
Your audience dictates what they want to hear and how they want to hear it.
If you've gotta tie 'em to the barstools or lock the doors in order to keep 'em in there listening to you, rethink.
--Mac
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excellent post Mac.
the rules are the rules for a reason.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
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XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
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Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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