PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Man's comment about BIAB

In gigging for several years with BIAB, I’ve never had a negative comment about its use in live play. However, last week on a gig with my trio (sax, guitar, and vocalist), a man walked by the stage, glanced at the screen and said out loud, “Hey, that’s cheating.” He was smiling, so I guess it was OK. Between songs, I explained to him that we try to exploit the use of technology and, furthermore, didn’t have the space nor resources to hire a full rhythm section. He walked away saying, “Well, you guys sound pretty good anyway.” Makes you wonder what patrons are thinking when they hear BIAB live.

Did the guy leave the band a tip?

I guess I understand the guy's point. when you go out to hear live music you do not expect portions of it to be pre-recorded.

Taking your comments literally, it sounds to me like the guy was kidding...and did compliment you.

Anyone with a clue knows how skinny live music gig money has become...and folks have heard solo keyboard and guitar players gigging with drum machines for oh....30 years!

But without BIAB or other forms of tracks, I would imagine the critics would say the music sounded thin so you can't win 'em all.

(-:

Jim

Hi J Larry

Yep, I hope the comment was a compliment. As others have said, live music is pretty thin on the ground nowadays.

His alternative is a Jukebox or DJ. Neither are anywhere close, so Band in a Box is still by far the best available option given the circumstances. At least it still provides an opportunity to supply live music, not like the DJ.

The question I get most often is "What program are you using for the bass and drums?" Later, Ray

It has been my experience that Band in a Box is little understood.

Most do not (cannot?) fathom that the program can intelligently create a slightly different accompaniment for the same songfile if the user desires to use it in that fashion, which is the way I like to use it.

They relate the situation to that which they already know - and the assumption therefore is that you are merely playing along to a static recording playback.

Some don't even think I'm actually playing along as well, and can accuse of mimic playing while the laptop is actually playing the part.

Some peer around to see the screen, and if the Music Staff or Chord display is onscreen and, of course, highlighting while the performance is going on, they assume that I do not know the song, do not know how to play, etc. They would not do that if there was a simple paper chart or book up there, for they are already pre-conditioned to perceive that as "real" playing, while the exact same fake chart displayed on a laptop screen somewhoe is interpreted by some as being some form of "cheating".

It does not necessarily have to involve Band in a Box at all, either. For some years now, I use the wonderful .pdf versions of all of the Realbooks, Fakebooks, etc. as I can get my hands on, stored easily and neatly on my laptop. I fold the lapotop out flat and place it on the pianoboard or heavy duty black music stand and use the Search feature to rapidly bring up charts at jam sessions or band practices, saving me having to lug all those paper books, saving me having to manually find each song, etc. I love that, can even make the display as large as needed for easy viewing and have been able to "Scroll" an enlarged view by learning to quickly tap the "Page Down" and "Page Up" buttons, which, once practiced, is *much* faster than the old manual turning of pages. And, when gigs and such are outdoors, there is zero problem with wind, pages, page-clips, hold-downs, etc.

But some folks just see "laptop" - and make their assumptions, often equating that with "illegal play" or "cheating" or trying to pass off some sort of sordid trick on the people.

Even have had some fellow MUSICIANS make that absurd accusation about the .pdf Fakebooks on my pianoboard, go figure.

Just smile at them and by all means remain friendly and professional about it, if you can, maintain the good onstage attitude for that is paramount to success in entertainment.

I have found that AGREEING with them can stop the thing dead in its tracks, BTW. "Yeah, ya caught me!" (smile) -- and then continue on with the performance.

One time at a restaurant gig, where I used to use BiaB as just my Virtual Bass and Drums to make a jazz piano trio happen, there one of those fellows was. He made his sarcastic comment. I wasn't even using an electronic digital keboard for the piano, the restaurant has its own rather nice Kawai Baby Grand onstage. And I smiled at him and said, "I no longer need the keys of the piano to light up anymore! I'm MUCH better now!" - with the most insane expression I could muster. It stopped him cold, but it likely didn't do much for my show's reputation...


--Mac

Good points Mac. Will take them on board.

I recall the one annoying thing that happened to me time and again while I was playing piano on stage is that a guest would come up, introduce themselves and then want to shake hands. It doesn't seem to occur to them that the music stops while the formalities take place!

Regards

Trevor

YES!

I have had that happen, also there seem to be an inordinate number of folks who want to engage me in conversation while I am *performing*!

For some reason, their perception is that, since there is a laptop up there, the performer must be able to have a conversation while performing.

Most of the people who do that, I've noticed, are men.

And - it is all but impossible to extricate from that situation without invoking their anger or wrath about it.

Explanations be damned, they view it as if the performer had just snubbed them or worse.

Funny thing, they would never interrupt like that if they don't see the computer...

When performing live with BiaB, I always have a few totally unaccompanied piano things to salt the set with. A Ballad, or sometimes I just play a song and sing it at the same time with just the instrument I am using for the gig, piano or guitar, as accompaniment. This is a good thing to do, to prepare some of those and use them. Not only for the reasons of this discussion about audience perceptions -- it can come in handy to always have those memorized unaccompanied performances at the ready for those times when you may have to reboot the computer onstage or something just goes awry with the laptop or the programs. Allows for a graceful exit from the set and the venue owners won't view at as being cheated out of set time as well.


--Mac

@Mac

"Some don't even think I'm actually playing along as well, and can accuse of mimic playing while the laptop is actually playing the part."

Just max out the volume on your keyboard and play a series of "wrong chords." Tell him you're trying to play like Monk did.

Then tell him if he would drop a couple hundred in the tip jar, you can have a bass player and drummer show up for the rest of the sets!!

(-:

THANKS for the great stories though....however frustrating. So, I will repay you in kind.

For those who think using tracks for certain parts is "amateur" or "bush league" my wife's band did six weeks at the Paris Las Vegas a few years ago. She had keys, bass, drums and sax but also HORN TRACKS!

Granted they were KILLER horn tracks arranged and created by a noted L.A. session player with sampled horns but they were TRACKS.

We used a dual CD player rig with a click track going into one side of the drummer's head set and the horn tracks going out to the house mixer.

So, if using tracks is OK with one of the most "big time" resorts in America, it ought to be OK in Bubba's Bar & Grill....ya think??

(-:

Jim

@Mac

"For some reason, their perception is that, since there is a laptop up there, the performer must be able to have a conversation while performing."

Wear dark horn rimmed shades. People will think you're blind and will probably leave you alone. Or learn a sentence in Russian to respond with.

TRUE story...I was playing in a high school rock & Roll band. We were playing at a Jr. High Prom. Our sax player...who was great by the way and went on to play with the (posthumous) Dorsey band...was wearing shades.

Between songs...some punk kid came up to the stage and said something like..."Why are you wearing shades man? Do you think that's cool or what?"

To which the sax player said..."No, I'm blind man."...at which point the kid said..."Oh man, I'm REALLY sorry...honest."

At which point our sax player dipped down his shades...looked the kid right in the eye...broke out an appropriate grin and of course...flipped him off!!!

AT LEAST 20 people...including us...burst out laughing and couldn't stop. The kid skulked away in total embarrassment. One of THE highlights of my gigging career!!!

(-:

Jim

Most of the adverse commentary I get comes from other music forums where people consider BB to be "cheating" .....

screw um.... Yup, that's what I say, it just like going to a studio and hiring a steel player and a drummer, and a piano player...etc.... Since I wouldn't have too much say over how they would play the parts..... what's the difference?

None...

BB is cheaper and better in most cases from studio cats I have known in the past.

Well, as some of you know because I have said so, I don't do live performances, I just do studio recordings with BIB and other softwares, however, a lot of "live" performances I have seen in bars, restaurants, etc. are accompanied by pre-recorded tracks, beat boxes, and things like that, and people don't seem to mind, they just enjoy the music, so i can't understand what's different about using BIB for that, other that the benefits of a great software that we all know about. Just saying.

Mike B.

I render mp3 tracks and people are curious about them. Since there is no scrolling BiaB player up there, there is nothing to explain, and they wouldn't get it if I tried.

http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.html

I simply tell them that I record all the parts we don't play on stage at home in my studio. That works for the non-musician.

If a musician asks, I give him/her as much as I think they want to hear.

If someone thinks it's cheating, that's OK with me as long as I'm entertaining the crowd and getting paid at the end of the night. Since well over 97% of our gigs are either repeat business or direct referrals, we must be doing something right.

Notes

I play with an informal group sometimes and there are people there that think if you even have a pickup in your acoustic instrument you are inferior and cheating. You can't win em all.

I guess the bottom line is, if your audience does not mind then it is probably OK. there really is no other standard to apply! personally I would not feel comfortable standing up there by myself with only an acoustic guitar when the piano or sax started playing its solo! it would seem totally weird to me!

for those of you who are comfortable using BIAB and/or backing tracks in live performances, I am curious as to whether there is a line you would feel should not be crossed. for example, if I have trouble singing and playing guitar at the same time, would it be ok for me to hold the guitar and sing while the backing track is playing the guitar? taking this a little further, what if I have a bit of a cold? would it be ok for me to lip-synch the whole performance? at what point is the "live" show not "live" enough?

I'm a pianist using BIAB for bass and drums accompaniment. I would definitely feel weird if another instrument were playing a computer generated solo. I would never use it. Comping to a computer soloist is not too cool. Later, Ray

Lip synching is cheating...period. In that case, the "performer" is quite literally PRETENDING to be singing and therefore, attempting to "fool" the audience.

I'm even OK with solos out of BIAB because if you are a guitarist "comping" with the soloist, you obviously aren't pretending to be playing the solo.

All other ryhthm section instruments are fine too. If you are playing keyboards, you obviously aren't pretending to play bass, or drums or anything else.

But the best way...I think...to head it all off at the pass is to tell the audience flat out that you have...yes...a Band In a Box who will be accompanying you.

And they're great guys...don't smoke, drink or do drugs...never arrive late or no-show...and don't need to take showers.

(-:

Jim

".....personally I would not feel comfortable standing up there by myself with only an acoustic guitar when the piano or sax started playing its solo! smile it would seem totally weird to me!"

Not me, I haven't done the live thing in a while but if I was, I'd just say - play it Harry - and keep strumming my guitar while the sax solo played. I might even throw in - isn't he great - mmmm mmmm - or some other wise crack and flash a big smile to the audience. LOL!

"But the best way...I think...to head it all off at the pass is to tell the audience flat out that you have...yes...a Band In a Box who will be accompanying you.

And they're great guys...don't smoke, drink or do drugs...never arrive late or no-show...and don't need to take showers."

Exactly.

I guess I'd have to say that is a somewhat arbitrary line you've drawn! If it is billed as a live performance and a significant part is recorded the audience is being "fooled".


Many drummers and bass players who don't have a gig tonight might say you are "cheating"!


Yeah, I think this would be a better strategy. However, you know that at least 1/2 your audience will not understand what you have just described so IMHO you are still fooling a large portion of them by using pre-recorded music as part of your show.

but like I said before, if your audience accepts it then it is probably ok. for me personally, I would not be comfortable doing it and I would never pay to see a gig where the music was pre-recorded! of course, I have been in more than one tiny bar where the singer was using a drum track and it never bothered me much cause all I was paying for was my drinks!