PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Man's comment about BIAB

I think you make a great point about recorded music. To me a recording is different from a live performance because all recordings are heavily engineered, mixed, mastered, recorded and re-recorded, use musical wizards, patch together various takes to get the best one, etc.

So BIAB is just the poor man's small army of excellent session musicians! The only drawbacks I'd see to using BIAB on recordings is 1) it becomes difficult for me to add my own instrumentation because honestly I am not as good as my band in a box and 2) some of the tracks can start to sound a little similar (because of the few I really love to use)!

I just give them "the LOOK" and they sort of sulk away back into the crowd, oh yes they glance back from time to time to see if I am still looking at them but never approach again.

Later,

I think there will always be a cross section of folks who are adamantly opposed to using backing tracks in a live situations (probably most of those are musicians!).

I am on the fence about it. Lots of folks use backing tracks at Streetjelly.com and lots don't. I would like to get a mixer in the future and try that out, though.

I have to agree with you there, one of my favourite realtracks is the cowboy soloist by Jason Roller. I use it all the time and songs do start to sound a little similar after a while. I must start to experiment with others.

As regards biab itself I find that even seasoned musicians will scuff at us for using it not because they consider it cheating but because they are far too proud to use a program like it.

Musiclover

Right.

I very rarely program a BiaB soloist to play in my songfiles that I use for live performance. For much the same reason.

When I DO use a BB sololist in a song for live performance, I try to invoke a Soloist in which I can still work in some "play around" using my own instrument. I've got a couple or three songfiles where I've invoked a RealInstrument soloist, but have used Bar Settings and such things to turn that into a "Call and Response" solo rather than the entire Chorus soloing automatically. The Realtracks Soloist plays a couple bars, then I answer with a couple bars, etc. - but I have found that this is something that shouldn't be done too much in one evening, as well. In my case, it is never a Sax, but since I tend to have my songfiles set up such that the Virtual Accompaniment changes from Virtual Jazz Trio consisting of Bass, Drums and my own Piano or Guitar Playing to a Virtual Jazz Quartet where BB plays Bass, Drums and one Jazz Guitar while I play live piano or guitar, it is not a case where there is an "invisible" horn player taking a long solo. I don't tend to use the Horns much in live performance, Real or MIDI.


--Mac

I, of course, accept your view. But I don't think mine is "arbitrary" at all. If the "live" artist is performing "live" with his/her instrument and/or voice then no one is being fooled. If the singer is lip-synching, that is, by definition, pretending to sing.

Totally different scenarios.





I assumed the performance was being given to those beyond the 2nd grade in which case 99% of the people in advanced civilizations would understand when you explain that you are using computer generated accompaniment.

(-:



To each his own. But unless the performer is Tommy Emmanuel, I can think of a relatively few solo artists (known or unknown) whose performances wouldn't be more full and pleasing by adding first rate rhythm section tracks.

Anyone ever heard Kristofferson in a solo gig? I have. But with GREAT respect for all of his legendary talents...dude can't sing on pitch to save his life. It's just painful to listen to him and having accompaniment of ANY sort would result in a much more pleasing gig.

(And anyone familiar with how Pro Tools "saves" recording artists in the studio knows what I'm taling about.)

(-:


Jim

The same money you spent for your drinks is where the venue gets the money used to pay the performer.

Kevin, probably most of them were unemployed musicians!

I’m not on the fence though. I would much rather listen to a musician playing or singing to some backing tracks than to listen to a DJ! Well with the exception of Karaoke that is

but the distinction I was making was one of a performance where I am consciously purchasing the performance as opposed to one where I drop into a bar and some guy is up there playing. they really are quite different. not making a value judgement...just pointing out the difference.

Oh.

You mean as in a Concert Performance where tickets are sold.

I doubt seriously that any of our forum members who use Band in a Box for accompaniment on a regular basis are trying to fill concert halls. But there might be some small fractional percentage, this software has so many different uses by so many different folks, I wouldn't discount it entirely.


--Mac

If the folks are having a good time, that's what counts. If "some guy" doesn't like what you're doing, then that's his problem, and it's probably because he wished he could do it.

Seems to me that if you are a one man band piano player and a sax solo comes in, the audience is not going to expect it to be you (in which case you would have to play the sax by yourself with no accompaniment, or revert to some sort of already generated accompaniment).

I remember one time, using my arranger keyboard, a guy came up and said, "hey you're just pushing buttons". I responded with, "ah, but I know which buttons to push."

I guess if I had 6 or 8 arms, I could play bass, guitar, piano, trumpet, and drums all at the same time, but I think most in the audience would be more amazed at my 8 arms rather than the music I was producing.

If the audience came to see a one man band to play all the instruments, then that just isn't going to happen. There will always be a few folks to make snide comments; that's their problem.

And doesn't the guy that hired you know what you are doing? If he just wants you to play acoustic piano, period, he would have probably told you. Otherwise, have fun and do what you do.

or, as in a local venue that might not quite be categorized as a "concert hall" but that I still purchase tickets for the performance!

just to clarify my comments...I think perhaps I am inexperienced with the range of venues that folks here are performing at. my comments are mostly about concerts where you purchase tickets to see a specific performer.

for example, I went to a show recently where The Builders and the Butchers were the headliner. There was a total of three bands. my ticket was not very expensive and it was a small hall that prolly held a couple hundred people, all standing only. in that situation I would have been surprised and disappointed to discover that any of the music or vocals was coming from a recording! there were three bands, each consisting of 5 to 7 musicians, and everything was live!

but if I was at an event or location such as a street festival, local bar, wedding reception, etc. I don't think I would really care too much whether the performer used backing tracks or lip-synched or whatever they wanted to improve their performance.

Some people would refuse to buy tickets to a Broadway show on tour because increasingly they perform to tracks...at least partial tracks supplemented by a small number of "first chair" musicians.

I've been to too many such shows which travel with an MD and a half dozen musicians and pick up another half dozen locally. Well, sorry...a 12 member "orchestra" trying to do Le Miz is just going to sound thin and lame.

So, I would vastly prefer to see shows if I KNEW that much of the orchestra was recorded tracks.

One could certainly "protest" the loss of gigs for the local "pick up" musicians but generally, the tracks are recorded by TOP musicians...mixed and mastered to perfection and sound a LOT better than the sound that could possibly come from the very scaled down orchestras that touring companies can afford to pay.

And all the sound man has to do is get the volume right whereas much of the time the "mini-orchestras" are mic'd terribly and the mixes suck.

And those session musicians frequently get per-performance "royalties" not just "fee for services" session money.

So, ya gotta be careful about what/who you're protesting.

Take that same concept into the local gigs we play. The owners CAN'T pay for full bands so they're not being bad boys for not hiring them.

So, now you've got solo keys or guitar. Well, I'm sorry but they just cannot put out the MUSIC that bands can...which is why there are such things as bands!

Hey...I'd pay serious money to go listen to Willie playing Trigger solo (if he plays her anymore). But Willie doesn't usually gig at Joe's Bar & Grill and those who do generally ain't Willie.

So, if I go out to hear MUSIC...what I want to hear is MUSIC and if a couple of guys play live and supplement their performances with really well done rhythm section tracks then I am going to enjoy the music more and am going to respect the live guys for taking the time and trouble and having the talent to produce their tracks.

FINALLY...if playing to tracks is cheating, then I guess we need to throw all our effects into the trash can. It is not US playing those "tap delays" or loopers or flangers or chorus or tremolo effects...they are analog or digital EFFECTS.

Of course, all the above is personal taste and others who feel differently are perfectly justified in doing so.

Regards,

Jim

I hear ya John. If I went to hear a BAND or BANDS then I would expect them to play live too. And if I caught any lip-synching goin' on I'd demand my money back.

Best,

Jim

yeah, I don't know about the general concert-going public but if my choices are Le Miz thin or Le Miz with pre-recorded tracks I'm gonna stay home, watch the movie and enjoy Hugh and Anne! next you'll be telling me that Gene Simmons isn't really spittin' blood!

Its the musicians on stage who determine the success of the gig for the most part... whether it's one solo performer with tracks or a 10 piece band with a horn section.

Audience rapport.

I saw a 2 piece band who were early adapters of the MIDI revolution. Everything was played live but the "band" was sequenced. Lights, FX, piano, etc were all midi controlled. They kept the floor packed and people dancing.

I saw Mike Cross, solo guitar/fiddle/singer.... all by his lonesome on a huge stage. No backing, no sequencing, nothing electronic except the PA. He also kept the audience totally involved.

On the other hand, I've seen whole bands who would have been more entertaining and engaging had they just stood there and picked their noses.

As I see it, if the tracks ADD to the show or the song, just do it.

Personally, I'd much rather hear music played 100% live - with no backing tracks. But I'm looking at it from the viewpoint of a musician.

The vast majority of the audience members are only concerned about how good the music sounds to their ears.

You can play for yourself, you can play for other musicians, or you can play for the general public. If you are good enough, you will probably get the audience you asked for.

When I was on the cruise ships in the 1980s the small orchestra played to a click track for the main shows. They just fattened the track. The main production singer sang live but her duet partner was a dancer lip-syncing as were the other background singers. It worked for the audience.

My wife, Leilani is a trained dancer. We go to the ballet a lot (and I enjoy it). More often than not, they dance to a recorded track.

Many years ago Pat Metheny went on tour with a small group and a Synclavier playing backing tracks - and he is a respected jazz artist (from my musician's point of view, without total group improvisation, jazz is compromised).

We play with backing tracks that I create myself, often with BiaB as a starting point, sometimes 100% Biab and sometimes 100% from scratch in a DAW.

The audience responds well to this. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, I give them as much of an answer as they can understand (if they ask).

For those obscure wedding songs that I'm only going to play once, I'll consider buying a track to save time (that is if the song would take a long time to sequence). More often than not, I'm not truly satisfied with the track, but for a one-off song that nobody else is going to want to hear it's good enough. The audience really can't tell the difference.

A year or so we played at a new Yacht Club. The first thing one of the committee members asked me when we showed up was, "You aren't doing karaoke, are you?" They hired us again so what we were doing worked.

After a while I tracked down the group that played there before us and caught their act. They were using karaoke tracks with background singers in the mix.

The tracks sounded like the kind of tracks you would make for a recording, real instruments with too much compression, (that works for recordings but not live performance). Plus the solos nobody was playing and the background vocals.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, this group does get a lot of work, so most people don't mind.

As I said, I use backing tracks. Would I rather play with a 'real band'? Musically - definitely "Yes" but for these reasons "No":

• Nobody around here pays enough to make a living with a bigger band - I'd need a day job to support myself
• Work ethics 1: Leilani and I have extreme work ethics, we learn songs, rehearse a lot (and are never late or reluctant to do so), and on the gig rarely take breaks when the crowd is hopping - not too many other musicians that I know will do that
• Work ethics 2: We never miss a gig for any reason (even if we are sick), and we are never late for the gig. When my father died, my mother checked my gigging schedule before deciding on the date for the funeral (thanks mom!)
• Work ethics 3: Since we are an extremely happily married couple, nothing is compromised by a band-mate who is more concerned with chasing a member of the opposite sex than doing his/her job - I've seen a number of gigs ruined by someone's libido
• Work ethics 4: We don't drink alcohol on the gig or anything else that will compromise either our voices or our ability to play our instruments, instead we bring thermos jugs of warm water or warm green tea

There is more than one right way to make music. For me the answer is, do what works best for you, make the compromises you need to make, and if you want to work, be sure you will be at least acceptable for your target audience.

Insights and incites by Notes

Mac

Someday, on one of my now rare trips back east, I gotta' look you up when I'm back at ground zero (puzzle palace) because you MUST have some fighter pilot in you!

(or if you get to ABQ for any reason and as an FYI the Albuquerque Balloon Fiesta starts this coming Saturday - I can get you up in a balloon or on a balloon crew if you want)

Larry

We do a couple of campground shows, the nursing home circuit, maybe a church or two and whatever else comes along. I use BIAB/MIDI for creating background tracks and play guitar to add a bit of live performance to the mix. For us, it's more about the vocals and harmonies than it is about the band. In the venues we play, we've never had a complaint about using tracks.

The key phrase here being "In the venues we play". If I'm going to see a national headliner, I'd be really disappointed to see them show up with a microphone and a laptop.

Good discussion.