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I have started using Audio Tracks, then moving those to other tracks. as Performance Tracks [Bass and Melody]. It works as it should. However, transpose from C to E doesn't work for me. Is it possible to change the key from C to E ---------Leon
Last edited by Leon Carpenter; 10/02/13 08:05 PM.
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Give us the exact steps you are using, so we can make a recommendation.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Transposing audio is not easy. Unless I'm missing something in that OP..... You would need to go back to BB and change the key there, then you can render a new audio track in the correct key. Or record it again on the live instrument.... those really are the best ways. Most key conversion programs which change the note pitch are problematic.... even the best which I consider to be Melodyne, will leave artifacts that are not desirable in the final mix especially with large jumps or sloppy editing. The bigger the key change the more likely you are to encounter artifacts from the conversion process. Half steps or less are generally OK.... but from C to E is 2 1/2 whole steps.....that is a huge jump to try to transpose flawlessly. I have found a program...which I do not own..... called Key Changer http://www.songgalaxy.com/software.php I have tried the demo version and it works OK but has artifacts..... but you have to convert to MP3 which is self defeating with the music we record.... we want to work with waves and not mp3 for quality reasons.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/03/13 03:55 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Thanks for the swift reply Matt and GuitarHacker. I do not have the skill needed to add intros, riffs, endings e.t.c. I want to have a band mate add those to a few BB songs. However, things change. Such as the need to change a key at home or on a gig. As a trial I have recorder the bass part in Audio, saved it as a performance track, then moved it to the bass track. Same thing for the vocal part. I move it to Melody. After setting pan, vol., reverb, e.t.c. I change the title a bit. It is saved to a separate folder on an SD card. From here I unfreeze all and try to figure out a way to cause a key change. The RealTracks and midi change no matter 1/2 step or as many as I request. On play back, the performance tracks remain unchanged. So, sending a song to a band mate or what ever by e mail is limited at best. Very little information is furnished by P.G. Music concerning this excellent feature. Maybe, just MAYBE next version.------Leon
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Hi Leon,
Saving to Audio file means that the key cannot be changed without incurring digital "artifacts" which are undesirable.
That is because there is extreme difficulty involved with changing the Pitch of a pcm digital audio file without changing the Tempo of the file as well, and while there are some few audio programs that can do this type of thing, such as Melodyne, they are expensive. They are also not necessary when using BiaB.
The way to change the Key Sig of any of your BB generated stuff is to go back to the original BB songfile used to create the song, make sure that all tracks are UNfrozen, as indicated by no "snowflake" ( * ) in front of any of the tracknames, and then simply change the key entered in the Keysig block in the main window of BB to the desired key and say Yes to the prompt that pops up.
After doing that, it is necessary to hit Gen/Play to force regeneration of the songfile in the new key.
Then, if you are wanting to use Audio files for exchange, you ahve to go through whatever method that you used before to Render or otherwise obtain those audio files. These new files will then be in the desired new key, email them off.
--Mac
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I'm pretty sure PGMusic products use the same Elastique software to change pitch/tempo of audio as it does to generate it in the first place. At least RB does ..
This is much improved from a few years back.
Changing the key of audio in RB is pretty simple and painless. I've not tried in BB, not sure if it is as easy as RB or not.
May want to try opening the BiaB file in RB, then change the key .. at which point RB asks if you want to transpose the audio tracks too (actually it gives you a few MIDI/Audio options like excluding any track with the word 'drum' anywhere in the name).
As you mentioned 'Save As' another name to preserve the original.
You may notice artifacts, you may not, but it is easy to do what you are trying to do by using RealBand instead.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Leon, the way you describe it ..... yes, there is no way to change the key easily. Audio will NOT change with the midi and the real tracks. Nothing you do can fix that short of going back to BB
SO..... go back to the original BB project and render those "performance" tracks into the proper key.
With a large hard drive, you could actually render the song into several different keys and list the key in the title...... Heartbreaker_C Heartbreaker_G for example.... that way the situation is under control. Just load the one you want or need.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/03/13 09:53 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Thanks to all. A proper respond to my question. Mac, I do understand about freeze/ unfreeze. I have over 225 songs which I have edited to my satisfaction. The fact that BB will not let me select a bar or a group of bars to freeze or unfreeze has been mentioned by others, including myself in the past. That feature alone would merit a version change IMHO. MY goal was this: Have Jim {guitarist} record the parts that he would play live, as the second part of my duo. I could then, perform as a single act as need be. I will still have the parts recorded as planed, with out the ability to make a key change.-------Leon
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Honestly, try opening the file in Realband instead. Most of what you are needing/requesting is available and already implemented in RB. You may have a small learning curve, but you may also find joy quickly.
Your workflow sounds like it would benefit from knowing 'when' to switch to RB. Start in BiaB, then switch to RB for additional features. They are different, but many BiaB features carry over to RB yet RB gives you many other options.
Start a new project in BiaB, then once happy with the basic arrangement, and you need to start surgically changing things try moving to RB
Freezing a track? Not needed in RB; just cut what you don't want and generate new parts using the same or different style .. on another track (48 available instead of 8 or 10) or the same one. You can even generate multiple takes for only a given section, and cut/paste to hearts desire.
Transposing the whole song, or a section, is easy in RB, including audio ..
It's different than BiaB and more powerful in many ways. Not as quick as BiaB sometimes, but more exacting when you need it. Learn to use both, like I said; your workflow seems to fit the ideal RB user (in conjunction with BiaB).
You likely already own it (included with most BiaB recent purchases). You may be pleasantly surprised at what you already have the ability to do.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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For what it's worth, I agree with rharv. My workflow involves using both BIAB and RB to compile a song. Each program plays an important part in the development of my material.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Rharv, Thanks again for the reply. I read your posts daily and can tell that you like RealBand as an end product. Perhaps you take things a few steps farther than I do. I do have RealBand [2013 Everything Pak.], and there are times when I mess around with RealBand. I do find it rather hard to get interested in. I also have Studio One, Reaper, Cool Edit Pro 2, Anvil Studios plus Sony this and that. All have strong points. Cool Edit Pro 2 being my favorite. It is out of date to most folks, but I find it to be user friendly. I have used BIAB since Version 12, next was 2008.5, next was 2010.5. I have since updated to each new version except 2013.5, and that hasn't happened yet  Let me ask this question. If I start a song edit in BB, send it to RealBand to add Audio files as you suggested. Can I then open it back in BB to play, as if it were a sgu or mgu? Because I like using BB on my lap top. I do not need 48 tracks to make a big production. RealDrums, Piano, Jim, and myself on vocals and 5 string bass. It has worked for me. Most gigs are coffee houses, plus we have lots of winerys in the area which are great venues for a duo or a single performer with BIAB, a small mixer, a pair of QSC K12's with a Lap Top on a music stand.-----Leon
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I guess it would depend on how you save it, but once in RB most users realize the potential and go from there.
Not sure how files react when going 'back' to BiaB because I never do that.
By learning to use the Jukebox feature, live play back of RB files becomes pretty easy, much like BiaB but more control in some aspects (it plays back exactly the same every time).
"I also have Studio One, Reaper, Cool Edit Pro 2, Anvil Studios plus Sony this and that."
I understand having all those other DAWs installed. I have a quite a few also, but the integration of RB and BiaB and your needs seemed like a perfect match.
Once I'm in RB I always end up relying on features that BiaB can't supply so I don't go back to BiaB. However, this may not apply to all users. I saw your requests and realized you could do what you wanted quite easily using RB, so I suggested it. The choice is yours.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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RB Saves the song in RB format.
That is different from the BB format.
RB can open a BB format song and allow you to continue to work on it there, but once you make changes and save, it will no longer be able to be opened as a BB songfile inside BB.
This is because RB, by design, lays out the full playback of the BB song linearly along a timeline, but BB uses those choruses for repeats, etc. Once the songfile is impoorted into RB, it becomes a true multitrack with all parts laid out along the single timeline.
So RB can open .mgu, .sgu, etc. songs, and RB has the ability to generate more autoaccompaniment tracks using the BB styles if desired, but does not work at all in the BB songfile format.
Once imported into RB, though, the ability to generate more BB tracks alongside the existing tracks if desired can be very powerful in and of itself, so don't let this information heed your exploration of the use of RB in song development. Depending, of course, on your end goal. Those desiring to make a recording are more likely to want to use RB than those who need to use BB for playback in live performances and the like.
--Mac
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I have gone in both directions with the files..... and going from RB back to BB is not a problem.
I do that to change keys and if I decide to edit the song in any major way that doesn't work properly in my DAW with audio edits.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I have gone in both directions with the files..... and going from RB back to BB is not a problem.
RB saves as .seq format. BB, of course, saves as .mgu, .sgu, etc. format. Could you be more specific about how you open an RB file in BB? --Mac
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Hi Mac,
I just tried to save in RB and it will let you save an SGU file but will not save any Audio with it.
There is a dialogue that comes up asking the Melody and Soloist track (will only save Midi) and tells you that if there is any Audio to save that as a Seq. file
George
Windows 11 64 bit, Biab 2024 1111, Realband 2024
i7 Desktop Computer 16Gb Memory
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I've never really paid any attention to it. I save out of BB and it save the file as MGU. I open in Real band and save it as SGU. I simply click on the SGU file and it opens in BB without any problem.
Next time I open BB/RB I will certainly check it out to see exactly what I'm doing.... it's been painless and it works so I never really bother to dig into the file types...
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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.
"Save as BB song" is one of the choices in the RB FILES dropdown. When you do it, RB will ask you to identify the Melody track and the Soloist track.
The only times i have been successful at this is when the song was a BB song to begin with. All MIDI BB tracks, no audio. I imported the BB song into RB, then discovered I had deleted the original BB song. I got my BB song back, but with problems. One time RB had its own idea of what the prevailing style should be so the restored BB song sounded very off.
Try importing a BB song into RB and then back again.
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When transposing audio files without changing the tempo, all editors (including Melodyne) do one of two things: - When transposing up, they cut snippets of data out of the audio file
- When transposing down, they add little snippets of data to the audio file
These additions or subtractions of data is what creates the audible artifacts. Some do this better than others. Melodyne is a better one, but it still has its limitations. Even with Melodyne it depends on the voice being transposed and the interval of transposition. It's one of the limitations of audio tracks. Everything has its benefits and price. Bob
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I'm not so sure Notes is 100% correct in his above theory. Not challenging him, but I think that some other (more complex) math may be involved than simply adding or removing snippets. There have been great advancements in this aspect.
There are 'adjustments' made, but the artifacts are not what they used to be. Transposing in RB (current) compared to 6 years ago is a huge difference. You can 'see' it when audio editing once zoomed in.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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