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BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. #218321 10/17/13 03:02 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21 U usalabs14 OP Enthusiast
OP usalabs14 Enthusiast U Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21	I'm using BiaB 2012, with a Casio WK-500 using USB midi, I can record melody tracks with no problems, but when I try to use the pitch bend (set to +-2 semitones) while playing back a rhythm, it sounds and gets recorded very jittery, EG, when I move the wheel up or down slowly, I can hear the note bend, then return to initial note, IE, C down would sound the B note then immediately return to C or sometimes the bent note would stick and not return until the playback is stopped, but playing the note while bending when the rhythm is not playing I can hear the bend very smooth. I'm using the CoolSoft virtual softsynth that uses the FluidR3_GM sound font, I'm not using any VST/DXi synths and because of the huge midi -> soft synth lag, I set the soft synth latency to 0, which stopped the midi lag. I even tried using the Casio on both midi in and out, the pitchbend is still jittery when recording a melody while a realtracks rhythm is being played back. How do I stop BiaB from recording the pitch bend all jittery?

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218324 10/17/13 04:37 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,600 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,600 Australia	Hi usalabs, Welcome to the forums. Experience suggests to me that when things get 'jittery' it's usually a sign that computer resources are being pushed to their limits. Can you give a bit of information on your computer setup. For example: what memory, what processor speed, what operating system and is it 32bit or 64 bit, what soundcard, etc. Kind regards, Noel MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2026 audios on Soundcloud

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218330 10/17/13 05:08 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,879 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,879 Middlesex, NC	When everything is running smoothly the bends should sound exactly the same as they did when you were monitoring them live. I recorded a Japanese sounding instrumental several years ago that had a Japanese wooden flute with the classic bends up and down on certain notes common to that genre. Midi recorded and played them back perfectly. I suspect the issue to be settings related or in the sound card and driver set up. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. Noel96 #218466 10/18/13 11:54 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21 U usalabs14 OP Enthusiast
OP usalabs14 Enthusiast U Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21	Originally Posted By: Noel96 Hi usalabs, Welcome to the forums. Thanks for the welcome. Originally Posted By: Noel96 Experience suggests to me that when things get 'jittery' it's usually a sign that computer resources are being pushed to their limits. I checked with the performance meter and it showed all cores at or around 8% and memory usage around 32% Originally Posted By: Noel96 Can you give a bit of information on your computer setup. For example: what memory, what processor speed, what operating system and is it 32bit or 64 bit, what soundcard, etc. Kind regards, Noel System is as follows:- CPU = AMD A6-3650 2.60Ghz APU (Accelerated Processing Unit) Quad Core with on-chip Radeon GFX using shared memory. System RAM = 8Gb HDD = 1Tb OS = Windows 7 Home Premium X64 Internal Realtek HD sound I have no problem with Cakewalk Sonar 8 recording midi pitch bend, Cakewalk records with no jittery at all, and when using Linux (dual boot Ubuntu/Win7) Rosegarden, midi pitch bend is also really smooth, re-viewing or recording, but it's only BiaB that has the problems recording midi pitch bend, I have tried every which way in changing latency, but no change. I can't use ASIO4ALL as I have to completely disable windows audo because ASIO says the MS wavetable synth is in use, but disabling win audio means I can't use CoolSoft midi synth. I have also tried a PCIe soundcard, but there's no way of disabling the onboard sound in the PC BIOS, and BiaB always tries to use the onboard sound, with no options to switch to the PCIe soundcard. The jittery pitch bend sounds like the pitch bend range in BiaB is set to 0, thus resulting in when the bend data is being received by BiaB, it's range is set to 0 resulting in the bend being bounced back to center position, I had the same problem with a VST synth called 'Toxic Biohazard' and I had to set the bend range to the same as the midi keyboard, but I can'r see where in BiaB to set the incoming bend range to match the keyboard's range. Last edited by usalabs14; 10/18/13 12:12 PM. Reason: additional info

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218472 10/18/13 01:04 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	As an experiment, try changing the Pitchbend range on the keyboard itself, one at a time, and then check BiaB's response to each setting. See if perhaps one of the other settings works. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218478 10/18/13 01:28 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Just checked on my setup, BB defaults to a +/- 2 semitones on the pitchbend. It might be that the volatile files in your BB need to be reset, they can sometimes become corrupted. Inside BB, under the Options menu, try a Return to Factory Settings, and since MIDI synths are involved select the second choice down, which also reinvokes the MIDI and Audio installation Wizards. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218499 10/18/13 04:32 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,600 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,600 Australia	Hi again, To add to mac's posts ... If you want to play around with setting the range of the pitch bend, the controls are found as follows ... Click on "Melody" on the uppermost menu (#1), select "Edit Melody Track" (#2) and then choose "Utilities" (#3) from the sub-menu. From this next sub-menu that pops up, select "Change pitch bend range". The above assumes that you are recording your midi input on the Melody track. Regards, Noel MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2026 audios on Soundcloud

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. Mac #218505 10/18/13 06:37 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21 U usalabs14 OP Enthusiast
OP usalabs14 Enthusiast U Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21	Originally Posted By: Mac As an experiment, try changing the Pitchbend range on the keyboard itself, one at a time, and then check BiaB's response to each setting. See if perhaps one of the other settings works. --Mac I tried changing the keyboard bend all the way to +-1 octave (+-12 semitones), while testing, I moved the wheel slowly down on middle C, while recording on the melody track, as soon as the notes started to bend the bend immediately springs back to C, no matter how far the note is bent up or down, if the wheel is moved a little faster, the bend actually sounds arpeggio like, and not a smooth bend, but when not recording, and previewing on the Thru channel, the bend is very smooth. Default recording is on the melody track, but using Thru to listen while recording. It is futile to become lachrymose at the accidental disgorgement of lactic fluid.

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. Noel96 #218506 10/18/13 06:44 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21 U usalabs14 OP Enthusiast
OP usalabs14 Enthusiast U Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21	@Noel96 The BiaB pitch bend setting only affects what's already recorded on the melody track, not while the midi data is actually being recorded. Attempting to change pitch bend when there is no melody track, BiaB shows a popup warning that no melody track has been recorded. Somehow, I need to change the pitch bend range from within BiaB's incoming midi filter. I see in the BiaB Record filter that pitch bend is checked, but there is no setting to actually change the incoming bend range. It is futile to become lachrymose at the accidental disgorgement of lactic fluid.

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218511 10/18/13 10:22 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,600 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,600 Australia	usalabs, When you get a chance, could you please outline what your setup is? You mention Wavetable above but it would be great to know a little more. Using the "Snipping Tool" found in Windows 7, the easiest way to show us this information would be to capture an image of your Midi/Audio driver setup. To this, go to "Opt" (#1), select "Preferences". Now click on the "Midi driver" button" (#2) and then save a capture of the screen that pops up (#3). For example, below is my setup. To upload the image, use the "File Manager" option found in the "Full Screen Reply" dialogue box. Regards, Noel MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2026 audios on Soundcloud

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. Noel96 #218521 10/19/13 02:22 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21 U usalabs14 OP Enthusiast
OP usalabs14 Enthusiast U Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21	This is the snapshot of my audio setup in BiaB. Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in) Audio-Shot.jpg (93.62 KB, 55 downloads) It is futile to become lachrymose at the accidental disgorgement of lactic fluid.

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218525 10/19/13 03:13 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21 U usalabs14 OP Enthusiast
OP usalabs14 Enthusiast U Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21	ADDENDUM I have created a small test MP3 to give an idea what happens. The note I played is 1 octave above middle C while slowly bending down the wheel, then returning it back to center, then up. The keyboards pitch bend is set to +-12 (1 octave) https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hwslvk9cn2kcn5p/S3B1Mbzgtj It is futile to become lachrymose at the accidental disgorgement of lactic fluid.

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218526 10/19/13 03:33 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,600 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,600 Australia	Hi again, That's very useful. Thank you I see the Coolsoft synth is freeware. I'll have to download it and try it out. I wonder if it's the synth that's causing the problems. To find out if that's the case, I suggest trying the following experiment. 1. Set the MIDI output driver to GS Wavetable Synth. 2. Set the latency to 104 ms like it is in my set up. Now try to record midi with pitch-bend on the Melody track and see what happens. 3. If that works, try setting the latency to 0 ms and see what happens then. Good luck! Noel Last edited by Noel96; 10/19/13 03:34 AM. MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2026 audios on Soundcloud

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. Noel96 #218528 10/19/13 04:24 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21 U usalabs14 OP Enthusiast
OP usalabs14 Enthusiast U Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21	The CoolSoft midi synth is reputed to be the next best replacement for the old Yamaha XG100 which is no longer supported and does not work on windows 7. I switched to MS wavetable synth and BiaB recorded and played back the full range of the keyboards pitch bend very smoothly, I also tried with a VSTi/DXi synth such as the Cakewalk TTS-1, and including the default Coyote Wavetable DXi, and both record and play back the full bend range nice and smooth, sooo, it looks like it's the CoolSoft synth that's not accepting pitch bend data, if that's the case, it's a pity, because the sound from that synth is better than the Coyote and the TTS-1 DXi synth, mainly because it uses sound fonts, such as the FluidR3_GM sound font, but other SF's can be used too. I hate to loose it, but I haven't yet found a really decent midi synth that is comparable to the old Yamaha XG, not even the Roland comes close. It is futile to become lachrymose at the accidental disgorgement of lactic fluid.

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218529 10/19/13 04:57 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,600 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,600 Australia	Glad to see we've narrowed the problem down. Yes, it's a pity that Yamaha didn't keep up with their soft synths and soundcards. It should be possible to record using (say) the TTS-1 and then, once it's recorded, change the synth and play through the Coolsoft one. All the best, Noel MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2026 audios on Soundcloud

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. Noel96 #218532 10/19/13 05:10 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21 U usalabs14 OP Enthusiast
OP usalabs14 Enthusiast U Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21	Originally Posted By: Noel96 Glad to see we've narrowed the problem down. Yes, it's a pity that Yamaha didn't keep up with their soft synths and soundcards. It should be possible to record using (say) the TTS-1 and then, once it's recorded, change the synth and play through the Coolsoft one. All the best, Noel There is a big problem with recording using DXi, and playing back using coolsoft, if the Coolsoft synth is not processing pitch bends, then playing pack through that synth may work up til the pitch bend data, then the bend will go weird during playback. Hang on a min,,,, I just had a thought, ok, when nothing is playing back, the coolsoft synth processes pitch bends with no problems, as I can hear it via the thru channel, the bend only gets weird when recording. I'm preparing another small test file, which uses audacity to capture the output from BiaB when not recording and using the CoolSoft synth during a full octave bend,, I'll attach it here as sson as it's done. It is futile to become lachrymose at the accidental disgorgement of lactic fluid.

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218533 10/19/13 05:20 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21 U usalabs14 OP Enthusiast
OP usalabs14 Enthusiast U Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21	ADDENDUM Using the same url:- https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hwslvk9cn2kcn5p/S3B1Mbzgtj look for the file called Test-file2-no-recording. Same note, 1 octave above middle C using BiaB CoolSoft synth but this time BiaB isn't recording. It is futile to become lachrymose at the accidental disgorgement of lactic fluid.

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218547 10/19/13 07:49 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Okay, it sounds like the problem has been narrowed down as belonging to the use of the Coolsoft synth. You mention that it is a replacement for the venerable old Yamaha softsynth. Yamaha uses the XG MIDI command set, which is one number off from the standard GM command set. This is because the old Japanese numbering system actually includes zero as being 1. Try this: Inside BB, under the GM menu, is a command to tell BB to use XG system instead of GM. Try toggling the XG to ON, then check synth operation. The CASIO, BTW, uses the standard GM commands. I have a '500 also, love it for live gigs as a second keyboard. But I think I'd want to use it with its own internal sounds in BB rather than a softsynth such as that Coolsoft anyway. I'm certain it can sound much better. There are other advantages to using the Casio's internal sounds, as well. Because it is a hardware synth where the sounds are generated outside the domain of the computer, you can enjoy ZERO LATENCY without resorting to having to "trick" the computer timing into making everything come out right, you don't even have to use ASIO sound drivers when using the hardware synth. Along with the MIDI hookup to the Casio, it is necessary to take the Audio L and R outputs of the Casio and connect them to the Audio Line Inputs of your computer's sound device. Not only should the Pitchwheel always work as set in the keyboard, all the sounds in the CASIO can be made available for use with BB, even the tonewheel organ. --Mac --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. Mac #218553 10/19/13 09:06 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21 U usalabs14 OP Enthusiast
OP usalabs14 Enthusiast U Joined: Oct 2013 Posts: 21	I realize the CoolSoft synth isn't a direct replacement for XG, I love using XS for the realistic sounds that Yamaha used. From past experience using midi, I found a lot of soft synths use tone generators and adsr filters, which to my mind is not realistic enough, whereas, digitally sampled sounds from real instruments sound a lot better than tone generated. I also, used to use my keyboard for live gigs, but hooked up to a Yamaha TG100, and a laptop running the standalone virtual B4 and using the keyboard as a midi controller, simply because the 500 does not have that rich, 'Leslie' Hammond B4 sound that I can get with the virtual B4, using the far left E and F keys for Leslie slow/fast control. Using an external wave sampling tone generator, has a huge advantage over using the 500's internal sounds, in such that live performance is better with the external generator and practice sessions using the internal sounds, also when using a laptop running various virtual synths, including an ARP2600, I can have the laptop next to the keyboard and using the F keys much like the 500's registration memory, I've performed a 3hr gig that way. Anyway, being that the CoolSoft synth has problems with processing pitch bend data from BiaB, I found that I can create a rhythm section using BiaB, and export each instrument as a wav file, then import them 1 at a time into Sonar, which Sonar has no problems with the Coolsoft synth, which reminds me,,,,it's only BiaB that has the problem with the pitch bend and CoolSoft synth,,,Sonar has no problems using the soft synth and recording the pitch bend as it should. It is futile to become lachrymose at the accidental disgorgement of lactic fluid.

Re: BiaB records midi pitch bend very jittery. usalabs14 #218556 10/19/13 09:20 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Sonar uses the great old Cakewalk MIDI engine and it is full of autodetect routines, it is likely that Sonar is changing its settings to XG behind the scenes. In BB, we have to do it manually. Again, try changing to XG send under the GM menu in BB. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

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