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Joined: Jul 2008
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Mac,
Please explain the term: "from the 9 forward".
I've been around musicians, music instructors, professors, for a long time and have never heard the term. And, it didn't come up in a google search.
I can only try to guess at it's meaning.
Thanks
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Joined: May 2000
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Joined: May 2000
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Mac,
Please explain the term: "from the 9 forward".
I've been around musicians, music instructors, professors, for a long time and have never heard the term. And, it didn't come up in a google search.
I can only try to guess at it's meaning.
Thanks It is an old term used at one time by the originators of the then new form of jazz improvisation that was developed by Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and others, eventually coming to be known first as "bebop" but these days could include other genre titles such as Modern Jazz etc. I just enjoy using older terminologies like this one. Anyway, what is meant here is the selection of notes, modes, scales, even extensions to the written chords by mentally extrapolating the extension notes that would fall above the highest note or extension of the written fake chord and proceeding to use that for your improvisation. Likely the beginning example of such would be the common jazz substitution for the dom7 chord where even the comping instruments can elect to play that dom7 as a 9 chord without fear of clashing. Ex: The chart has an F7 as the turnaround chord in key of Bb, but the pianist or guitarist can and often will change that to an F9. Keep expanding that additional note and we find that the next logical note above the 9 would be the 11 (Bb in this case) and finally the top note we can extrapolate would be the 13, or the D. Now we have a situation where the chart calls an F7 chord as the turnaround, the chord compers in the ensemble have an elective situation in which they might change that simple F7 to an F9 or maybe even the more dense F11 or F13 and not change the basic harmony happening in the turnaround, well the soloist can use the same theory and way of thinking. Let's spell that F13 substitute in close harmony for a second, to make this clear: F,A,C,Eb,G,Bb,D One way of thinking about this now is that each three successive notes spell a basic triad within this chord. F-A-C is the simple root Major mode, Inside A-C-Eb describes an A diminished chord, Inside C-Eb-G describes a C minor, Outside because "F7" written Eb-G-Bb describes an Eb Major. Outside and G-Bb-D describes a G minor, Outside But wait, it goes deeper. Can you look at the note stack and readily see the Maj7 hiding in there? Again, for reference, F,A,C,Eb,G,Bb,D Eb,G,Bb,D describes the EbMaj7. Bird might then choose to stick an EbMaj7 arpeggio in there somewhere, right? Transcribe and analyze a few Bird solos. Again, it is not an EbMaj7 in "correct" terminology, it is just a way of thinking about it that simplifies what's really going on. KISS kinda thang. We can extrapolate a mode in which we can solo from any of those triads hiding inside and outside of this chord. If we choose to use only the parts of the chord that start outside of the octave, which is at the 9, then we are talking about "playing from the 9 forward". Note that the added extension notes are in reality merely playing the harmonic series, these notes are actually generated anyway when you play a chord with less extension, but since that natural generation of harmonics is always going to be of much less energy or amplitude, which is also dependent upon factors such as instrument timbre, type of sound generator, resonant factors, etc. we don't or cannot actually hear those notes in there. Just another way to *perceive* the situation. There are different ways of thinking about it, which, while maybe taking a different *approach* all ways are valid if the end result achieves the same goal, which in this case is addee Tension. One last thing, "9 forward" also can include the b9 in certain cases (ALT usage comes to mind). An experiment that I think that *every* aspiring musician/soloist should try is to find a keyboard that is in good tuning and equal temper, and play stacked fifths. C,G,D,A,E,B,F#,C#,Ab,Eb,Bb,F and back again to C at the top. Of course, we can't really do that with two hands, but we can play the CGDAEB easily enough and hear what's happening there. Analyze. It'll do ya good. Keep at it and you will find that you can go Lydian in a heartbeat while soloing. Always bear in mind that these kind of things deal with our *perception* of the theory and there are many different ways to get to the same end result, which is being able to familiarize ourselves with these various sounds so well that someday we get to the point where we can create on the fly rather effortlessly. Another great - and different - example of perception is the methodology or way of thinking employed by Pat Martino, in which he approaches this in much the same fashion actually, but with fewer rules. For example, when encountering that same turnaround situation as my example, Pat simply jumps up to the fifth of the chord - and plays in the melodic minor mode for the resulting thought-chord. Great for guitar players, the root of the chord is F in this example, Pat would most often grab at the Cm melodic from the Cm scale positions on the neck. Don't neglect that hidden diminished chord in there, either, here you can often use the diminished scale or the wholetone scale with impunity. --Mac
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Posts: 216 |
Thanks Mac, I've been exposed to the concepts in a couple of different ways but not that term.
I've settled on two ways of thinking of it which fit into my simple way of thinking.
1) Start from any chord tone and play off of an arpeggio starting from that.
What I mean by 'play off of' is I look at the tones of the arrpegio as my 'chord tones' or my 'sweet tones' or 'my home tones' if you will but all notes are in game (I like chromatics)
So if you take G7, I have an:
arp off the root - G7
arp off the 3rd - Bm7b5
arp off the 5th - Dm7
arp off the 7th - Fmaj7
But I don't think of the arp names, rather I just start from a G7 chord tone and just go. And they might extend into each other... lines like:
G B D F A C B G G (slur into the last B)
Or:
G B D F B D F A D F A C B G G
Or (descending)
C B Bb (slur into) A F D C B (up a 6th and slur into) G
2) Very similar to 1, Larry Carlton's "Super Arpeggio". This is playing consequtive Maj3rd Min3rd maj3rd min3rd etc.
You have to start on the correct note to have it fit.
Over Cmaj - C E G B D F# A C#, and of course the farther you go up the more out you are. You play around little pieces of that. So you might play around the G B D followed by playing around the B D F# etc. All while playing over a Cmaj chord (or an Am7 chord for that matter).
Over G7 you can start on the D: D F A C E G B
Last edited by Frankp; 11/06/13 06:31 AM.
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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
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Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
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Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
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