PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Woodshedding - Learning to Play! For the jazzers - is this cheating?

I posted this in the forums in the Gary Burton jazz improv class, but it seems like most of the people taking the class are like me - pretty much jazz improv newbies. There are a few folks in the forums that seem to know a WHOLE BUNCH about jazz improv, and they talk right over my head.

We have a lead sheet that includes the chords and the simple melody of 500 miles by Chick Corea, and we are assigned to figure out which modes work for each measure given the chords, and notes that are in the melody in the measure and sometimes in the previous measure. I've done that. The second part of the assignment is to write out the notes of each of the modal/chordal scales for each of the chord changes. I did that as well.

With the exception of the altered scale that's in a couple of measures, when I wrote out the scales, the light went on that I know I've read about before, that the 7 typical modes are just major scales for various keys. So, here is what I posted over at those forums:
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So, I've been working out scales that seem to fit in 500 miles, and as I'm writing out the scales, I'm realizing for most of them they are simply major scales of various keys (2 sharps = D major scale, but also it's E dorian, 1 flat = F major but also G dorian, etc.)

I know I've read this before, and Gary talks about it in one of the lectures, that this simple shifting takes care of the 7 modes. Now, I can nail major scales in my sleep - have known these since the 80's.

Would it be wrong to simply think of things like this?:

Lydian = V major scale
Ionian = I major scale
Mixolydian = IV major scale
Dorian = VII major scale
Aeolian = bIII major scale = I minor
Phrygian = bVII major = IV minor
Locrian = bII major = bVII minor
=============================================================

What do the jazz improvisers here think about memorizing this translation?

Just to be clear on this little table above, what I'm referring to is the degree of the scale of the chord in a measure, not the key signature for the song.

So if I have an E-7 chord, and it looks like it calls for Dorian mode, that calls for what amounts to a D major scale. And D is the 7th degree of the E scale, so that's why I wrote VII major scale. I can pretty quickly see the E, and my Dorian mode choice that I wrote down ahead of time studying the chart, and think - oh, I need to play notes in a D-major scale, but concentrate on E-7 chord notes as the main non-approach, non-passing notes.

You describe one of several ways to begin thinking about it, Scott.

If that method helps you to remember and retain, keep moving with it, as it is going to gradually become more and more familiar to you from that particular standpoint, and, once known as almost second nature, you will begin to see what they are truly called from within the kay signature of the tune or the key signature implied during a modulation such as the grand old two five one modulations where the key signature remains the same but the actual key changes only during those particular measures.

However, you need to correct some things here.

Let's look at this from the standpoint of C Major for the sake of simplicity:

Lydian = V major scale

The Lydian mode starts on the 4th of the Major Scale.

You describe the Mixolydian mode but have it under the Lydian header.

In the C Major scale, the Mixolydian scale is found from the V up, but it is NOT the C Lydian scale. It is the G Lydian (Major Scale but with flatted 7th).

Ionian = I major scale

Good old faithful you already know, but likely only in the context of the root, hence a C Major scale over a C Major chord. Also may work well over the iii (Rm) or the vi as well as the ii. in C.

Mixolydian = IV major scale

The IV, as described above, has been switched by you here.

The Lydian scale is from the IV up.

Dorian = VII major scale

Dorian mode is a minor mode. and is from the 2 up. D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D in key of C.

To say it is a Major scale built from the 7 up, it would have to be in a different key sig to work. In this case, B Major, which would throw in all sorts of accidentals (#'s in thia case) which would take it out of the key.

Aeolian = bIII major scale = I minor

Again, out of key. bIII ain't in the key of C. Aeolian must be starting on the A in C, not the Eb. The Aeolian mode is also known as the Natural minor scale.

Phrygian = bVII major = IV minor

No bIII possible from within the key.

Locrian = bII major = bVII minor

Where do all these FLATS come from?

Let's take a look from this standpoint:

The Major Scale consists of the following intervals,

1,1,1/2 - 1 - 1,1,1/2

This forces us to think in terms of the spaces between each note rather than the notes themselves and works very well no matter the key, the notenames, whatever. It is kind of like negative logic, where we are viewing the actual steps or the spaces in between the notes rather than memorizing the notes themselves. Of course, a day should and likely will come when the note names become a matter of rote due to the familiarity of practice and repetition.

Now let's look at the modes generated by the Major Scale:

Ionian -- This is the Major Scale, from 1 through 8, old faithful. If we are in that same key of C, it is from C to C.

Dorian -- This is from D to D of the C Major scale, and is not necessarily always in the key of C, but can be. Carlos Santana's favorite soloing mode is the Dorian mode.

This is the D Dorian scale, not the C Dorian scale. Try "Black Magic Woman" soloing when song is in key of Dm to see.

Phrygian -- From E to E of the C Major scale, the Tonic Triad for it is Em and thus it can work over Em chord.

Lydian -- The tonic triad for the Lydian chord is the 4th of the key we are in, so in C it would be F. The Lydian mode works well over the Fmaj7 chord.

Mixolydian -- From 5 to 5, here we generate the scale that plays over the typical turnaround chord. In C that would be a G7 chord. So in C the scale spelling is the G Mixolydian. Tonic Triad is of course, G triad.

Aeolian - This is 6 to 6 of the Major scale and is also known as the Natural minor scale. But the Nat minor isn't used all that often over minors in practice, opting for the Harmonic or Melodic minor scale instead. Modern jazz, you must learn the Melodic minor scale as well or better than you know the Major scale, BTW, as it can be the basis for much of the thing once you get more familiar with which one to use and where. Interestingly enough, the Dominant Triad for the Aeolian mode is based on the iii chord, so in C it is the Em. Works great over Em7 or Am7.

Locrian - Tonic Triad is B diminished, but its Tonic 7th chord would be the Bdim or the B half dim (Bm7b5).

Try the C Locrian scale over a 4Maj7 chord, in this case that would be the FMaj7.

So we see that while modes are *generated* by the steps of the Major scale within a certain key signature, the real trick is in knowing that each one actually has another unique key of its own.

Confused enough yet?

The path to overcoming lies in not looking for shortcuts.

Take it one mode at a time, not only do the headwork, memorizing the note names, the steps between the notes, but also practicing it over the chord as well as practicing not just in linear fashion but try skipping every other note (arpeggios happen then), playing it up and down in thirds, forths, three note climbs and descends (123-234-345-456, etc. and when moving downscale, then would become 987.876,765,654, ETC).

I hope this helps get you started, and I may have made mistakes here, just typing fast off the top of the head and all.


--Mac

Mac, It is helpful and perhaps I did not explain myself correctly as to what I meant with my roman numeral cheat sheet.

First chord of 500 miles is E-7, with the melody using D B B A F# and D, I think Dorian for E is the right scale choice. When I write out E Dorian notes, what I see there is the notes for D Major.

So, D is the 7th degree of the E scale, hence I wrote VII Major scale, not for the key signature for the song( which appears to be C), but for the specific chord.

Same song, next chord is G-7, which looking at the melody notes also seems to call for G Dorian, which when I write out the notes for it, I see F major. F is the 7th degree of the G scale so I wrote out VII Major again.

Next chord is Bbmaj7 and with the melody notes in the transcription, looks like it calls for B Lydian, which when I write out the notes - lo and behold we have the F major scale, so I wrote V major, since F is the 5th degree of the Bb scale.

B-7b5 with melody looks like B Locrian, which happens to be C major scale.

Am7 with melody looks like A Aeolian, which turns out to be C major.

And so on.

Since posting this here, I have had some good replies over at the Jazz Improv class forums and some were concerned that I would concentrate on the major chord notes of those cheat scales, but I can 'see' the proper chord notes in these major scales (for example, with the B-7b5, with C major over top, I know that B,D and F and A should be emphasized, but I also know that I have the luxury of simply using C major scale notes for approach and decoration notes in between)

So in short, my cheat table above relates to the degree of scale for the chord in question, not the key signature of the song.

I've tried this at the piano this Saturday morning, playing the proper chords left hand, and using my cheat major scale look-up, and to my ear, my noodlings actually sound pretty jazzy. There are a couple Altered scale choice chords that I'm going to have to work on. I'll post a link here probably before the weekend is out.

If you would have used the Key Signature instead of the Roman Numerals, there could be no such confusion and I do recommend that you use the keysigs rather than the Roman Numerals in your thinking, as that won't paint you into a corner later on.

Besides that, we don't really use the Roman Numerals in Jazz notation nor descriptions. It is far more common to use the Arabic numbers there. A 2m, for example.

The Guitar neck can make these things both more confusing and less confusing both at the same time. *grin*

Working with the piano at the same time as the guitar is a very good idea, can open up the world of guitar playing where far too many start out by memorizing dot patterns on the neck grid without paying enough attention to things such as which actual note is being played at a certain time, leaning on fretcount schemes to shift basically the same pattern around rather than working out the scales and modes from within the one position, things like that, which can open up an entirely different world for the guitar player wishing to really get into the art and science of improvisation.

Improvisation is really nothing more than Composing on-the-fly.


--Max

Well, here's the effort so far, after probably 10 run throughs, I decided to keep this one. 1st time through is pretty close to the proper melody, then next few times are more improv.

I will give a go on guitar now - that is probably going to be much more of a challenge at least from a fretboard knowledge standpoint.

Here's my right-hand only electric piano improv.
https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/500-miles-high-week-3

That's the ticket.

Remember to avoid playing the root of the chord in the improv, if you can. The more you avoid the root of the chord, the better in terms of keeping the tension up. Besides, the root is the bass player's territory and responsibility.

To bring modal thinking and the art of jazz together, all you have to do is remember to pay tribute to the pentatonics while runnin' around in the modes. Because the Blues is at the basis of jazz music.

Keep up the good work!

You'll know when you are there, because the cats you have been playing with will suddenly not want to play with you so much anymore. *grin*

Don't let that concern you, you'll find others to play with, and if you work it good enough, they will find you.


--Mac

I'm starting to have fun with this. Here's one with a synth lead I did this AM before heading off to church:

https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/500-miles-high-scott-lake

I'm not going to turn this one in because I have some pretty strong feedback on the delay and it obscures note choices (and there's at least one non-mode note in the 3rd or 4th run through that actually sounds cool but will probably mark me down).

Let me hit you with the old school "realtime remedy" for this problem.

"Relief is always only a half-step away."

In either direction, up or down, does not matter, just be ready to do it as soon as your mind - and not your ear - says, "uh-oh!". Waiting on the ear is too late, but sometimes happens. Just move that half step and keep on truckin' anyway. Don't. Stop. That merely serves to highlight, "I've just made a mistake." Never stop after the clunker. Make it finish a phrase. "Hey, did you guys hear me go outside on that?" - "Naw, I heard you get LOST, man!" (heh)

Keep that in mind when improvising and practice it.

That one little trick can turn a clam or clunker into nothing more than a transitional note.

From there, learn to work it via the arpeggio and not linearly and the problem soon becomes not a problem at all but can actually work in the soloist's favor.

And one more from the old schoolers:

"Whenever a problem arises, GO PENTATONIC!"

Use that Blues Scale interjection to get back on the straightahead track.


--Mac

Scott, I know exactly what you mean when you say "the light went on". That happened for me too when I finally started to understand the modes. At a certain point they all started to meld together for me and all of a sudden, wow, all the notes in my solos started to fit! That was a big deal for me.

I kind of have a convoluted way of looking at the modes, similar to how you view them, I think. If I want to play a Lydian mode I think of the scale of the 5th of the original chord. In other words, when I play a C Lydian scale I'm thinking of a G Major scale. It's just my way of thinking, warped as it may be, lol.

My biggest breakthrough, though, has been the use of arpeggios, thanks to our mutual friend Mac. He listened to a modal exercise I was playing on Youtube and he promptly said "play some arpeggios!" When Mac talks, I listen, lol.

Good luck in your jazz endeavors, Scott, what a trip it's going to be!

Lee - Yes! that's what I'm talking about but I made the mistake of using upper case Roman numerals.

With my cheat sheet I made, that's exactly how I wrote it down. C Lydian is the same as the notes of the G major scale, but I would emphasize C chord notes and make sure to toss the F sharp in there enough to give the brightness it brings.

So, to me, if I need to play let's say A Dorian, then I'm going to be doing G major as well, the 7th degree of the A scale with a major scale.

I think I will 'switch over' as I'm learning what the notes actually are - I'm hoping I won't have to think of them in this fashion; I'm hoping it will be like a 2nd language where I can switch over. My first few years of German were tough, but after having to work there and being required to speak it to get by, that's when it locked in.

-Scott

I only lasted a couple of weeks in that jazz class -- so what do I know (ha, ha).

The D dorian is not the c major scale, it is a minor scale. While thinking of it as the c major scale (it has all the same notes as the c major scale) might seem like a good move, it causes you to do a double translation in your head -- and slows you down. Learn the dorian pattern and then you don't have to think "hey I want the Z dorian, let me play the Y major scale". If it is a minor scale, then think minor.

Same with all the other modes, too.

I took the class last spring.

It seems to me that your method is fine especially in that you are aware of the chord tones at the same time.

I'm aware of three main choices for improv.

Key center soloing (one key or scale that fits over a series of chords)

Chord scale theory (one scale per chord, the Berklee way of looking at things)

Chord tone playing (targeting chord tones, arpeggios, chromatics,enclosures etc.)

It's probably a good idea to practice all three of those approaches. Ultimately you absorb all these ideas and then get to the point were you don't think of them anymore. It all just eventually becomes your music vocabulary.

I call that the, "modal troll" system.

Just a joke, for there are certain times and genres when this is the method that we *should* incorporate in order to stay faithful to the type of tune being played. Nuthin' worse than having to hear the newly learned straightahead player trying to force their newfound knowledge into a tune in which it just doesn't make sense.




This is what I call the Entry Point to Straightahead Playing.

Once it can be done inside the octave, the serious student of the hing should start working it "from the 9 forward" while learning and hearing where to place the critical ALTERED notes along the way - and that is what is meant by true "straightahead" playing as exemplified in Bebop and Modern Jazz genres.



I view this one as part of the above task, swince the chord tones or arpeggios are actually based on playing "every other note" from a given scale. The odd notes, that is.



Abwolutely. Always striving to make that practice sound as musical as you can as opposed to that sound of simply running scales with no musical purpose. If you practice doing that, that is how you will sound when things get to where you must fall back on that which you've done by rote. blecch



"Learn it, forget it, then PLAY!" -- Charlie Parker said that.

Practice is what breeds our familiarity.

Familiarity breeds contempt.

And I mean that in a NICE way.

Familiarity, then, makes us capable.


--Mac

This is the way I think of this.
Lets talk in c as this is only the white notes.

The brightest mode of any scale is the Lydian scale (NOT the Ionian as one might initially believe). This is F Lydian in the key of C. Just play the white keys from F to find this.

go down a perfect fourth from there (F) are you get the Ionian scale (C to C) often called the major scale. Play the white notes from C

go down another fourth and you get the Mixolydian scale the third brightest scale. Play the white notes from G

Down another fourth and you get the Dorian - the fourth brightest (darker and darker) Play the white notes from D

Next is the Aeolian (or natural minor) Play the white notes from A

Next the Phrygian Play the white notes from E

Next the Locrian - play white notes from B


Each step of a fourth (and the building of a scale thereof) brings a further darkening of the mode/scale

Chords derived thereof:

From the first degree (Ionian) a major triad

From the second degree a minor chord

From the third - minor
4th - major
5th dominant chord
6th minor
7th half diminished

Its very very useful to memorise this



So the degrees of the major scale, its chords and its mode, begin to make sense when you think in descending fourths.

Notice that there are two major chords and three minor chords derived from the major scale modes, and one dominant chord and one half diminished. They are always in the same positions - relatively speaking

Working around this modal system one finds, starting from the Lydian one finds that each mode in the order given above gets one additional 'flattened note'.
Starting with the Lydian one goes to the Ionian which (so to speak has the fourth tone flattened). From the Ionian the next is the Myxolidian/dominant chord - this has the 7th tone flattened. As you examine each mode in this descending order, you will find that the next step gets a further note flattened, until all notes of the parent scale are used up.

This will make more sense if you go to a keyboard and let your eyes see it.

00,

That is the approach that was proffered in the Berklee class in the 2nd week.

Now, the class is in it's 4th week, and Gary introduces something not too far afield from where my brain is already living - something he is calling 'common scale'.

Where the various chordal scales that work for different chords, are actually using the same exact notes. The fact that A Dorian is C Ionian (or what many just think of as the C-major scale). It's also Aeolian for something, but I can't recall which, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe Em?

I've kind of recognized these types of relationships by practice, without knowing the names and technical terminology. BTW I doubled the synth lead that I made for 500 Miles High to give it a little more depth. Here's the soundcloud link: https://soundcloud.com/rockstar_not/500-miles-high-scott-lake

Did not understand this. A dorian is not the same as C Ionian, A dorian has an F# its parent key is G, not C.

Correction: D Dorian, A Aeolian.

-Scott

Not sure if I understood the first statement, or the correction

Each major key has seven modes. Each mode is a scale started from a different note. There are no duplicate scales within the modes, there are duplicate chords however.


C Ionian has a major chord, same as F Lydian, but the Lydian sports a raised fourth note (in comparison).

D Dorian sports a minor chord

A Aeolian sports a minor chord and has a identical scale structure to the Dorian, except it has an additional flat 6th.

E Phrygian is the same scale structure as A Aeolian except it also sports a flat 9th (2nd). It also sports a minor chord.

No two modes have the same scale


If that is dizzying it helps to look at the piano whilst working things through

Hope that helps

Zero

C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Micxolydian, A Aeolian and B Locrian all share the key signature of C Major so no sharps or flats found in any.

D Ionian, E Dorian, F# Phrygian, g Lydian, A Micxolydian, B Aeolian and C# Locrian all share the key signature of D Major, so the two sharps, F# and C# must always be honored among these.

etc.


--Mac