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Outside of Galileo, history gives us Nicholas Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Rene Descartes, Blaise Pascal, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday, Gregor Mendel, William Thomson Kelvin, Max Planck and Albert Einstein, all of them expressed their belief in the judeo-christian God in writing, all of them certainly known as scientists, all of them contributed in no uncertain terms to the body of scientific knowledge. source: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html--Mac scientists must work within the constraints placed upon them. so if you live in a culture that believes some women are witches and must be burned at the stake you'd be well advised not to push too hard on the status quo.  also, not to pick nits but the source you cited is heavily biased toward judeo-christian religious views. as already shown in the Einstein quotes, these sources are great for supporting one's opinion but not so great for getting to the truth of the matter!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 11/04/13 01:19 PM.
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I wish you'd cite your sources, Keith.
The Einstein quote is from his famous "god letter" to Eric Gundkind on January 3, 1954. You can google "complete text of Einstein God letter" for numerous links. Wikipedia has numerous quotes from other letters by Einstein in which he says that people lie about him by saying that he believes in a personal God, and he very clearly states that he does not believe in an afterlife. He repeatedly refers to all religions as superstitions. I'll deal with Max Planck's quotes in a separate post.
Keith
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Don, I was using hyperbole to make a point. I don't actually believe all preachers are liars. I just don't assume someone is honest just because they're a preacher. Unfortunately, when I was in the ministry years ago and associated with a lot of other preachers, I got exposed to the ugly under belly that exists in any organization and it jaded me. As a side note, I am impressed with the new Pope. He seems like a decent guy all around, ... for a preacher. 
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Both Max Planck quotes can be found on page 198 of J. L. Heilbron (1986). The Dilemmas of an Upright Man: Max Planck and the Fortunes of German Science. Harvard University Press. ISBN 9780674004399.
Keith
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As a side note, I am impressed with the new Pope. He seems like a decent guy all around, ... for a preacher. The thing that I'm enjoying about Pope Francis is that he is causing the powers behind the throne a lot of discomfort. What makes it fun is he is challenging his handlers and because of what his office has been set up to be, no one can say he is wrong.
Keith
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Unfortunately, when I was in the ministry years ago and associated with a lot of other preachers, I got exposed to the ugly under belly that exists in any organization and it jaded me. I can empathize. I was very supportive of the church and extremely religious until I began to study for the ministry. The end result was somewhat like getting to see how sausage is made.
Keith
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Mac,
When I used the term “narrow minded” to describe fundamentalists, I wasn’t saying it as an insult. I was being descriptive of their belief system.
So when *you* throw an insult, its not an insult? Right.
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Mac,
When I used the term “narrow minded” to describe fundamentalists, I wasn’t saying it as an insult. I was being descriptive of their belief system.
So when *you* throw an insult, its not an insult? Right. No Mac. When *I* throw an insult, it will be intentional, not descriptive. If I say a one lane road is narrow, ...I'm not insulting the road. I'm just describing it.
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scientists must work within the constraints placed upon them. so if you live in a culture that believes some women are witches and must be burned at the stake you'd be well advised not to push too hard on the status quo. And in one fell stroke you attempt to throw Sir Francis Bacon's historic and revolutionary treatise describing the scientific method out the window? Your given example is illogical. also, not to pick nits but the source you cited is heavily biased toward judeo-christian religious views. And the other side's sources cited are not biased? huffington post?  as already shown in the Einstein quotes, these sources are great for supporting one's opinion but not so great for getting to the truth of the matter! I listed 12 other great scientists besides Einstein, what about them? Doesn't matter. Someone else once said, " I am the way, the truth and the life." --Mac
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scientists must work within the constraints placed upon them. so if you live in a culture that believes some women are witches and must be burned at the stake you'd be well advised not to push too hard on the status quo. And in one fell stroke you attempt to throw Sir Francis Bacon's historic and revolutionary treatise describing the scientific method out the window? Your given example is illogical. Not at all. My point, as I am sure you understood, is people, even scientists, live within their society and must, to some degree, conform to the norms of their day in order to make any progress at all. also, not to pick nits but the source you cited is heavily biased toward judeo-christian religious views. And the other side's sources cited are not biased? huffington post? I gave you several sources, none of which have a stated and obvious bias toward one religion or another. Your single source is obviously and admittedly heavily biased. Even at HuffPost you will find writers and journalists with opposing viewpoints. as already shown in the Einstein quotes, these sources are great for supporting one's opinion but not so great for getting to the truth of the matter! I listed 12 other great scientists besides Einstein, what about them? Doesn't matter. Someone else once said, " I am the way, the truth and the life." --Mac I certainly feel you should believe whatever you want. But you mentioned "truth" and religion has never been fact-based, rather, it is faith-based. The rules and regulations are dictated (you would say by god...I would say by men from the middle ages) and then expected to be followed, not questioned. That is not how science works. In science you are encouraged, no, required to be able to present a fact-based argument for what you believe and legions of other scientists are standing by to put your ideas to the test!
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I certainly feel you should believe whatever you want. But you mentioned "truth" and religion has never been fact-based, rather, it is faith-based. The rules and regulations are dictated (you would say by god...I would say by men from the middle ages) and then expected to be followed, not questioned. That is not how science works. In science you are encouraged, no, required to be able to present a fact-based argument for what you believe and legions of other scientists are standing by to put your ideas to the test! I really like the motto of the Science channel. "Question everything!" All religions and all of their gods don't like to be questioned. They just want you to bow down in compliance.
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I'd drink a brew at church, just saying.
Later,
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I certainly feel you should believe whatever you want. But you mentioned "truth" and religion has never been fact-based, rather, it is faith-based. The rules and regulations are dictated (you would say by god...I would say by men from the middle ages) and then expected to be followed, not questioned. That is not how science works. In science you are encouraged, no, required to be able to present a fact-based argument for what you believe and legions of other scientists are standing by to put your ideas to the test! I really like the motto of the Science channel. "Question everything!" All religions and all of their gods don't like to be questioned. They just want you to bow down in compliance. love and share that motto!
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I gladly accept the moniker of " narrow minded, fundamentalist , as I believe in and glory in the Deity of Jesus the Christ.
If Christ is not what he said he is, then I'll be dust for eternity, but if He is God,as I accept, then I have waiting for me, as well as others, glory with Him for eternity.
Anyone can write an opinion about God but ,IMHO, the creation can not create the creator.
As I make my living as a potter, my pottery that I make,did not make me.
The finite can not contain the infinite. People make religion. What Eisenstein or others say about God doesn't change who God is.
I'm not upset or bothered in any way by those here that don't believe in God and consider my beliefs simple or naive. Grace is a simple gift that is true.
Wyndham
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I gladly accept the moniker of " narrow minded, fundamentalist , as I believe in and glory in the Deity of Jesus the Christ.
If Christ is not what he said he is, then I'll be dust for eternity, but if He is God,as I accept, then I have waiting for me, as well as others, glory with Him for eternity.
Anyone can write an opinion about God but ,IMHO, the creation can not create the creator.
As I make my living as a potter, my pottery that I make,did not make me.
The finite can not contain the infinite. People make religion. What Eisenstein or others say about God doesn't change who God is.
I'm not upset or bothered in any way by those here that don't believe in God and consider my beliefs simple or naive. Grace is a simple gift that is true.
Wyndham Amen! Don S.
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If I say a one lane road is narrow, ...I'm not insulting the road. I'm just describing it. matthew 7:13-14 "13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. fallacy #1 is to accept an idea as being true just because the majority accepts it.
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Although I have always been deeply religious, I do not believe in a personal God let alone a Christian God. -- M Planck (approximately 5 months before his death) In a letter to Beatrice Frohlich, 17 December 1952 Einstein stated, "The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve." fallacy #2 you can't prove or disprove anything by the testimony of other men's opinions book of Romans:
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. paraphrased: Are the words and promises of God untrue because men don't believe them? Absolutely Not! If you want to stand in the day of judgement, believe God even if it means you have to dismiss the wisdom of every man.
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Think quickly all who have posted in this thread:
To those considering themselves Athiests - have you ever convinced a believer in any religion by asynchronous communication of any of your tenets?
To those who consider themselves to be believers in something that is unfathomable to the human thought process - have you ever convinced a non-believer in this type of asynchronous communication in any of your tenets?
I simply don't think this is a fruitful or meaningful way to have this 'conversation'.
It's my opinion that quoting scripture to those who don't trust it is rather pointless.
It's also my opinion that quoting men of scientific fame on what they have stated on this matter also is rather pointless.
Matters of belief in a God or even the rejection of such ideas are, in my opinion, both matters of faith - the only difference is in what/which/whom the individual places their belief and faith. I'm using this particular definition of faith in Merriam Webster: "strong belief or trust in someone or something"
-Scott
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What I do have a problem with is fundamentalists who insist on taking their religious texts literally and reject any type of science that may differ from their narrow minded views. I've always found it interesting that in the gospels, the pharisees interpreted the bible differently than Jesus because their literal viewpoint gave equal authority to the writings of men... to the point that they no longer knew what the scriptures said. When faced with a disingenuous question that was intended to trap him into a lose-lose answer based on the literal interpretation of the day: Matt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. In my opinion, this continues to be the case in discussions with people who are either unfamiliar with scripture, or whose training in scripture has been received at one of the many schools that pushes a humanismanistic interpretation of scripture. Or, for that matter, with people whose instruction in scripture was flawless, but they simply decided not to believe it.
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Scott,
I agree that this is not the way to make a convincing argument.
However, we live at a time when it is more and more true that one point of view is promoted everywhere, while the other point of view is being silenced wherever possible. We're not far away from the time when the option of presenting an alternative point of view is no longer allowed.
As long as it is still allowed, I think its worth taking time to plant seeds. Its really all we can do.
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