Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn

you may be watching too much Fox News Mac!


I do not watch network television at all, period. Put that one away more than 30 years ago and never looked back, never miss it, either. No cable tv bills here, no satellite receiver, none of it.

However, since I'm still somewhat viable in the advertising game, I just checked the latest ratings and found that Fox Nearly Doubles CNN and MSNBC's Combined Prime Time Viewers Last Week.

You made that assumption simply because the particular article I chose in order to bring attention to a very real problem facing millions of Christian veterans of the US Armed Forces.


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I'm curious...do you consider the Supreme Court rulings in 1962 and 1963 abolishing state-sanctioned prayer in public schools to be unconstitutional?


state sanctioned prayer in public schools.

This stems from two rulings: Engel v. Vitale (1962) and Abington School District v. Schempp (1963)

Then in 1971 Lemon v. Kurtzman established the so-called "Lemon test" which states that in order to be constitutional under the First Amendment any practice sponsored within state run schools must: 1) have a secular purpose, 2) must neither advance nor inhibit religion, and 3) must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion.

Prayer has never been forbidden. Courts have consistently ruled that the students right to pray cannot be abridged unless it causes substantial disruption in the schools operations. What is forbidden is state sponsored prayer.

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How about the various rulings to remove religious symbols from the public square?

My position is simple and follows the Constitution. We all have freedom to believe (or not) as we wish. And the government cannot and should not promote any religion.


The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Seems to me that if any level of government outlaws or prohibits the free speech of ANY US citizen, the 1st Amendment is violated.

Therefore, I interpret the First of our Constitutional Amendments as telling us that any example of Free Speech placed on display by any private citizen or citizens is an exercise of this basic right.

It is also very clear from the other viewpoint as well, the US CONGRESS can not legally "make a law" that would attempt to establish a religion.

A display is not a congressionally made law!

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If kids wish to pray during their lunch or recess I support that right and no one has taken that right away.


Then you need to re-address your use of the word, "abolish" up there.

Which is it that you espouse really?


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But if a teacher or administrator attempts to lead the class/school in a prayer or actively promote a religious belief I oppose that. And so does our Constitution!


You may oppose it, and I would defend to the death your personal Constitutionally granted right to oppose it, but unless your teacher or administrator is 1) a member of Congress, 2) able to get the Congress to vote and pass a law that would require a particular religion, and 3) could get a President to sign same into law, I say that the Free Speech rights of these teachers and/or administers is being placed in jeopardy, and illegally so.

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Likewise for religious symbols in the public square. That area is shared and paid for by all of us. Not by any one religious group. So I do not want to see a cross or star of David or star & crescent or any other religious symbol displayed in the town hall or courthouse.


Again, you don't want to "see" it, and that is your position, but the Constitution is silent on the subject.

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For quite a long time Christianity has been the most popular religion in the United States. And because of that, this religion assumed certain privileges like having Christian prayers in public schools and having their religious symbols displayed prominently in the public square.


Whoa. What do I see here?

Your argument that this nation was not founded by Christians in the first place just went up in smoke in order for you to come up with an argument for this issue!

That leaves you in the position of standing in midair once again, my friend, this time trying desperately to use a nail to fasten a raw egg to the wall.

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As we become more tolerant and considerate of others we have begun to remove many of these privileges from Christianity.


That neither tolerates nor considers the Jewish or Christian citizens of this nation.

Tired old song and dance of hatred is all this is.

Surely you really don't want to be seen as the prejudiced, intolerant, anti-semitic and hate-filled person that says the things you have written here.


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And that is exactly as it should be based on our Constitution!


I disagree wholeheartedly with any and all of that.

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Many Christians feel persecuted because of this. But make no mistake, the removal of your religious practices and symbols from a public space where they never belonged is NOT persecution! It is simply the leveling of the playing field and removing of privileges Christianity should never have had in the first place!


You should read this part and understand it well.

I do not feel persecuted over all of this crap, and, really, I have just now begun to fight, as it were.


Those that want to change it, you are going to have to EARN it, in no uncertain terms and it is not Mac that you should worry about.

I'd suggest that you pick up a copy of "Fox's Book of Martyrs" and study it for real examples of real persecution, but in your case I'd be concerned that you would interpret it as a "howto".


--Mac

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