PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice

Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice. You protect our country, people, freedom and our way of life. Thank you to all of the PG family who’ve served.

Two Baptist chaplains said they were forced out of a Veterans Affairs chaplain training program after they refused orders to stop quoting the Bible and to stop praying in the name of Jesus.

When the men objected to those demands, they were subjected to ridicule and harassment that led to one of the chaplains leaving the program and the other being ejected, according to a federal lawsuit filed Friday.

The Conservative Baptist Association of America is suing Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric Shinseki; the group’s suit alleges two of its chaplains were openly ridiculed by the leader of the San Diego-based VA-DOD Clinical Pastoral Education Center program.

'Not only was the treatment these men received inappropriate, it was also a violation of federal law and the religious freedom guarantees of the First Amendment.'

- Attorney John Wells

“Not only was the treatment these men received inappropriate, it was also a violation of federal law and the religious freedom guarantees of the First Amendment,” said John Wells, an attorney representing the Colorado-based denomination.

“No American choosing to serve in the armed forces should be openly ridiculed for his Christian faith,” he said, calling it one of the most blatant cases of religious discrimination he has ever seen.

Lt. Commander Dan Klender, a Navy chaplain, and Maj. Steven Firtko, a retired Army chaplain, had enrolled in the VA’s Clinical Pastoral Education Center program in San Diego last year.

The one-year training program is required for anyone wanting to work as a chaplain in a VA hospital. VA chaplains differ from other military chaplains in that they are limited to working in VA hospitals.

The program, which has affiliates around the nation, is open to chaplains of all religious faiths. However, applicants must have completed master-level seminary work.

There were seven chaplains enrolled in the San Diego program led by Nancy Dietsch, a Department of Veterans Affairs employee with a history of antagonistic behavior toward evangelicals, Wells said.

“She’s been very, very critical of Christians,” Wells said in a telephone interview. “Instead of teaching anything dealing with faith issues, she’s dealing with a holistic, humanistic approach. It’s the idea that the spirit comes from within.”

The VA did not return telephone calls, but they did release a statement to NBC San Diego. The VA said the two men were “bullying other classmates and refusing to honor other faith groups.”

Wells said the chaplains were subjected to anti-Christian bigotry.

“And that would be putting it mildly,” he said. “A lot of these so-called liberals are very liberal with their own ideas, but when it comes to somebody else’s ideas, they don’t want to hear it.

Among the allegations listed in the lawsuit:

1. Dietsch told the chaplains that it was the policy of the VA in general and her in particular that chaplains should not pray in the name of Jesus.

2. During a classroom discussion on faith, Firtko said “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Dietsch told the chaplain he was not allowed to quote from the Bible in her classroom.

3. In October 2012, Dietsch told the class she believes God could be either man or woman. When Firtko referred to “The Lord’s Prayer,” she “angrily pounded her fist on the table and shouted, ‘Do not quote Scripture in this class.’”

4. In the aftermath of the Sandy Hook school shooting, Klender mentioned during a group discussion on counseling that he would tell a parent that “there is evil in the world.” Dietsch retorted, “You don’t actually believe that do you?”

5. In January 2013, she told the chaplains “there is no room in the program for those who believe they are right and everybody else is wrong.”

6. Later that month she told students that there are many ways to heaven and that one religion cannot be right, while others are wrong. Firtko objected to that statement by quoting Jesus who said “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me.” Dietsch told him to stop quoting from the Bible, then stated, “If you believe your beliefs are right, and everyone else’s is wrong, you do not belong in this program.”

The harassment had become so bad by February that Klender withdrew from the program. A week later, Firtko received a letter notifying him that he’d been dismissed from the program.

In July, the pair filed a formal complaint against Dietsch for religious discrimination and violating the Association of Pastoral Continuing Education Standards.

Attorney Wells said it appears the government is trying to establish “a secular humanist-based religion free from any influence of Christian dogma.”

“The most egregious part is the VA supervisor told two chaplains that they were not allowed to pray in the name of Jesus and they could not quote Scripture,” he said.

Wells feared that unless changes are made, Christian chaplains are going to be discouraged from serving in the military.

“Christian chaplains are under a lot of pressure right now and facing a lot of challenges,” he said.

Todd Starnes is host of Fox News & Commentary, heard on hundreds of radio stations.

I saw Fox News in there so not sure how unbiased that report is!

As to whether atheists support the rights of Christians I am unaware of any cases where atheists have tried to restrict what Christians do or say in their churches or homes.

Another reason to question your news sources, my friend.

Neighborhood Commitees, Town Councils, City Managements, etc. have been foisting their unconstitutional biased and hateful legislations, arbitrary regulations and even arrests onto Christians meeting in their own homes for at least two decades and counting.


--Mac

you may be watching too much Fox News Mac!

I'm curious...do you consider the Supreme Court rulings in 1962 and 1963 abolishing state-sanctioned prayer in public schools to be unconstitutional?

How about the various rulings to remove religious symbols from the public square?

My position is simple and follows the Constitution. We all have freedom to believe (or not) as we wish. And the government cannot and should not promote any religion.

If kids wish to pray during their lunch or recess I support that right and no one has taken that right away.

But if a teacher or administrator attempts to lead the class/school in a prayer or actively promote a religious belief I oppose that. And so does our Constitution!

Likewise for religious symbols in the public square. That area is shared and paid for by all of us. Not by any one religious group. So I do not want to see a cross or star of David or star & crescent or any other religious symbol displayed in the town hall or courthouse.

For quite a long time Christianity has been the most popular religion in the United States. And because of that, this religion assumed certain privileges like having Christian prayers in public schools and having their religious symbols displayed prominently in the public square.

As we become more tolerant and considerate of others we have begun to remove many of these privileges from Christianity.

And that is exactly as it should be based on our Constitution!

Many Christians feel persecuted because of this. But make no mistake, the removal of your religious practices and symbols from a public space where they never belonged is NOT persecution! It is simply the leveling of the playing field and removing of privileges Christianity should never have had in the first place!

Those that want to change it, you are going to have to EARN it

no religion should have any sort of official place or preferential treatment in our government. Not yours, not mine, not no one's! Keep your religion where it belongs...in your heart and in your home and in your church. And feel free to wear jewelry and clothing branded for your religion. That all fits under freedom of speech. But don't expect to be able to preach inside our public schools! It ain't allowed and it never should have been allowed!