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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Okay, all you audiophiles. Can you give me some suggestions for an external sound card/device to give better output sound from my laptop. I was working in my studio this evening and noticed a big difference in the quality of sound coming out of my desktop vs. my laptop. Ran both through my mixer and studio monitors and played the same track on each. The sound from the desktop was much cleaner and defined.
Thanks
Rich
Windows 10, 64 bit | BIAB 2019 PlusPak | Studio One 2 Artist
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If it's just playback, almost anything will work. But, did you turn up the gain on the laptop as high as you could before distorting, then adjust with your mixer? Get as much gain from the laptop first.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Thanks, Matt.
I'll give that a try.
Rich
Windows 10, 64 bit | BIAB 2019 PlusPak | Studio One 2 Artist
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Rich, Louder sounds better.
Did you level match the sound from both computers when you did the comparison?
(Level matching is making sure that the perceived volume is the same from both sources. This is important to do when ever making comparisons on various settings during mixing. For example sometimes one might think a track sounds better after adding a certain amount of compression but it might only sound better because it's louder. And of course another way and sometimes better way to increase volume is to, well, raise the volume).
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Rich,
Band in the Box and Real Band tend to run OK using MME drivers or ASIO. Laptops generally have soundcards that require MME drivers.
As long as you're not having other issues, the difference in the sound quality between the two should be minimal, however, different music players do have different quality sound output plus the internal amplifier circuitry will also be a factor in the final sound quality. THe level you use in the computer will also affect the sound.... louder (90%+) is usually getting into the distortion levels in the amp output. So cranking it is not always the best idea. Output impedance match or mismatch will also affect the quality you get. If both are not the same, there will be a noticeable difference.
Laptop sound cards and their circuitry are smaller and are built more cheaply then the larger sound cards in desktops.... but even now, MOBO's are coming with everything, sound, video, etc, all built in to the MOBO.
The best option, is to spend the money for an external interface. Normally between $100 to $300 but the price can be higher depending on the number of inputs, outputs, and other options. These interfaces normally run ASIO drivers and have professional sound quality. Since they are connected the the computer with a USB port, you can use the same interface of both the laptop and the desktop depending upon which one you are using at the moment. That way, you are assured the sound is professional quality and will not vary depending on the computer.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 11/13/13 06:21 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Rich, Matt is spot on concerning how to drive a Line from your laptop into any amplified speaker system. That not only goes for Studio Monitors, but for PA and other amplification systems as well.
Most laptops, we use the Earphone Jack as the output to drive an analog Line Input on amplified speaker system of any kind. That is perfectly sound as the Earphone output can indeed electrically drive a consumer level Line Input properly - but only if the line is driven about as hard as the earphone amplifier circuit can drive the impedance of a Line input.
In layman's terms, always make sure that the Software Sound Device's Mixer applet for Playback has the Master Fader turned ALL THE WAY UP when driving an exterior line level amplifier, also make sure that the sub-faders for the playback of the media you are playing back are also turned up, at least 75% of their full travel or better.
This is because DRIVING the line is always a better situation than tryhing to "suck" the signal out of the line from the other end by turning up the amplifier gain, which is a recipe for bad audio due to the higher Signal-to-Noise ratio that such attempts must bring into the thing, as well as the fact that much of the amplitude of the signal isn't going to be there in the first place, which can and does result in a "thin" sound due to mismanagement of the Gain-Staging.
The modern laptop's built in sound is pretty darn good in the Playback department. This is due to the widespread consumer interest in the playback of music, video, etc. It is the Record side of these soundcards that are nut up to the same kind of specs and if you are recording analog input sources such as Mic, that would be the time to look into an aftermarket sound device designed for the home or semi-pro recordist. Playback should sound pretty much equal to the playback on your big DAW computer if the laptop is set properly as described.
--Mac
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I agree with Mac. I'd better, because I learned this theory from him!
It's also something I discovered years before by trial and error. The reason I said that just about any external interface (like M-Audio Fast Track, that sort of thing) would do is that any interface will work at line level. Mac has explained why you need to emulate that as best you can with the headphone jack, by setting it at high volume.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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...Output impedance match or mismatch will also affect the quality you get. If both are not the same, there will be a noticeable difference...
Although is some electronic circuits the maximum power transfer occurs when Zout = Zload, a typical Power Amplifier has a very low output impedance (<0.1 Ohms). If the amplifier had a Zout of say 8 ohms, driving an 8 ohm speaker, just as much power would appear across the amplifier as would be across the speaker. The objective is to make the speakers Zout as low as possible. This also helps the damping factor. Amplifiers have different speaker impedance ratings (i.e. 2, 4, 8), but this has to do with amplifier's ouput stage current handling capability and not it's output impedance. Hope this is helpful. Wally G
Yamaha Montage 6 Roland J80, D50, Integra 7, BK-7m, FR-8X, 1967 Fender Jaguar, Fender Strat, Fender 1965 Twin Reverb reissue, Selmer Trumpet, Akai EWI, Studio One 4 My WEB Site: www.gontowski.com/music
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The ways in which Input Impedance affects audio is widely misunderstood.
If I have a headphone amplifier that is capable of developing 10 Watts of power into an 8 ohm load when the load is headphones, that same amplifier output, when fed into a typical Line Level input that has a much higher impedance, Ohm's law can tell us what amount of power that headphone amplifier is able to develop into that amplifier input, which is actually a load.
Ohm's law is E = IR where E is the Voltage, I is the Current and R is the Resistance.
Watts, in the DC arena to keep things as simple as possible here, is the Product of Voltage and Current developed across that Resistance.
Therefore we can extrapolate an algebraic that will allow us to use the two available knowns regarding that headphone amplifier.
If W = V x I then W = I*2 x R or W = V^2 / R
We know the Watts, we know the Impedance where that wattage is developed.
To find the Voltage that would be needed to develop those 10W then, we can use the formula V = (W x R)sub2
V = (10 X R)sub2
or
8.944 Volts
But the Impedance of our Line Level amplifier input is NOT 8 ohms!
A typical Line Level input can be as little as 2,000 ohms or as in the case with a lot of the highend sound devices built for recording, may be 10,000 ohms or sometimes as high as 1 million ohms.
Let's do the math for the 10,000 ohm (10K) amplifier input:
If we connect the output of the headphone amplifier, rated to deliver 10W into an 8 ohm load, directly into the 10K input of our monitor speaker amplifier, Ohm's law tells us that the same headphone amplifier can now only develop a much smaller Voltage and Current figure, which means it will develop much smaller amount of Wattage.
The headphone amplifier in this example is only capable of developing 0.008W, or 8 milliWatts of power into that 10K amplifier input.
Your amplifier input is then electrically safe from any sort of damage that the input could possibly cause.
Also, there will be no deterioration of the audio signal in this arrangement because the load, in this case very light load as compared to driving the very low impedance headphone or even speaker voice coil, cannot be "loaded down" by the amplifier input.
The mantra taught to young audio engineers is thus:
"In Audio circuits, you can always drive a higher impedance load with a lower impedance output with no problems whatsoever."
or
"Lower Impedance can always safely drive a Higher Impedance in Audio."
Note that the opposite scenario, attempting to drive a Higher Impedance output into a Lower Impedance input will indeed "load down" the output and thus create distortion, possibly clipping, and may hurt the driving amplifier circuitry if the load it is being required to drive is lower than the lowest value of load resistance that amp is designed to work safely into.
--Mac
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The ways in which Input Impedance affects audio is widely misunderstood.
If I have a headphone amplifier that is capable of developing 10 Watts of power into an 8 ohm load when the load is headphones, that same amplifier output, when fed into a typical Line Level input that has a much higher impedance, Ohm's law can tell us what amount of power that headphone amplifier is able to develop into that amplifier input, which is actually a load.
Ohm's law is E = IR where E is the Voltage, I is the Current and R is the Resistance.
Watts, in the DC arena to keep things as simple as possible here, is the Product of Voltage and Current developed across that Resistance.
Therefore we can extrapolate an algebraic that will allow us to use the two available knowns regarding that headphone amplifier.
If W = V x I then W = I*2 x R or W = V^2 / R
We know the Watts, we know the Impedance where that wattage is developed.
To find the Voltage that would be needed to develop those 10W then, we can use the formula V = (W x R)sub2
V = (10 X R)sub2
or
8.944 Volts
But the Impedance of our Line Level amplifier input is NOT 8 ohms!
A typical Line Level input can be as little as 2,000 ohms or as in the case with a lot of the highend sound devices built for recording, may be 10,000 ohms or sometimes as high as 1 million ohms.
Let's do the math for the 10,000 ohm (10K) amplifier input:
If we connect the output of the headphone amplifier, rated to deliver 10W into an 8 ohm load, directly into the 10K input of our monitor speaker amplifier, Ohm's law tells us that the same headphone amplifier can now only develop a much smaller Voltage and Current figure, which means it will develop much smaller amount of Wattage.
The headphone amplifier in this example is only capable of developing 0.008W, or 8 milliWatts of power into that 10K amplifier input.
Your amplifier input is then electrically safe from any sort of damage that the input could possibly cause.
Also, there will be no deterioration of the audio signal in this arrangement because the load, in this case very light load as compared to driving the very low impedance headphone or even speaker voice coil, cannot be "loaded down" by the amplifier input.
The mantra taught to young audio engineers is thus:
"In Audio circuits, you can always drive a higher impedance load with a lower impedance output with no problems whatsoever."
or
"Lower Impedance can always safely drive a Higher Impedance in Audio."
Note that the opposite scenario, attempting to drive a Higher Impedance output into a Lower Impedance input will indeed "load down" the output and thus create distortion, possibly clipping, and may hurt the driving amplifier circuitry if the load it is being required to drive is lower than the lowest value of load resistance that amp is designed to work safely into.
--Mac
Hi Mac, As an introduction, my real "gig" is an Analog Integrated Circuit Design Engineer with 30+ years of design experience, including the design of Power Amplifier I.C.s so I fully understand the theory. Obviously you do too! I was just addressing the statement that the impedances should be equal. Wally G
Yamaha Montage 6 Roland J80, D50, Integra 7, BK-7m, FR-8X, 1967 Fender Jaguar, Fender Strat, Fender 1965 Twin Reverb reissue, Selmer Trumpet, Akai EWI, Studio One 4 My WEB Site: www.gontowski.com/music
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I was just addressing the statement that the impedances should be equal.
Wally G
If we are talking RF freqs, I'm agreed with that statement. When the subject is Audio freqs, the above stuff I wrote applies - and works. But you know that. Of course, if I'm designing stages of audio gain for an amplifier, and if I desire full power transfer from stage to stage, then I would design for tight impedance match. Good to meet another experienced analog design engineer. We may be gettin' to be rarer than hens teeth these days... --Mac
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But if Johnny is traveling on a train heading West at 60 mph and Suzie is on a train heading East at 72 mph.......oh, never mind!
(-:
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But if Johnny is traveling on a train heading West at 60 mph and Suzie is on a train heading East at 72 mph.......oh, never mind!
(-: Either they had a serious miscommunication assuming they were both headed the same place.... or.... the answer is .... "purple"
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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But if Johnny is traveling on a train heading West at 60 mph and Suzie is on a train heading East at 72 mph.......oh, never mind!
(-: First data needed here is, "Are the two trains on the same track?" --Mac
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But if Johnny is traveling on a train heading West at 60 mph and Suzie is on a train heading East at 72 mph.......oh, never mind!
(-: First data needed here is, "Are the two trains on the same track?" --Mac I think this thread has been derailed... Wally G
Last edited by Wallyg; 11/14/13 08:35 AM.
Yamaha Montage 6 Roland J80, D50, Integra 7, BK-7m, FR-8X, 1967 Fender Jaguar, Fender Strat, Fender 1965 Twin Reverb reissue, Selmer Trumpet, Akai EWI, Studio One 4 My WEB Site: www.gontowski.com/music
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derailed indeed... but thanks for the input.
Upping the output volume on the laptop did indeed increase the sound quality. I'd estimate it's now about 80%-90% as good as the desktop sound. I think that will be close enough for stage speakers.
Thanks all
Rich
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