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Mac's comment about the unamplified sound of an electric guitar triggered a memory.
When I got my Roland VG-88 "V-Guitar" it was necessary to install the GK-3 divided pickup on my solid body electric. Calibrating this pickup requires adjustments so fine that they tell you that the backing on the double-stick tape is 0.1 mm in thickness and to take that into account when making measurements. My micrometer is only good to 0.005" and was barely adequate for the job.
My guitar is an Ibanez Roadstar II from the late 80s. I bought it as a cheap alternative to a Strat, but it never sounded all that good in that respect, and I've never had the dough or the will to replace it; it just 'played the notes'. In the process of setting up the synth it was necessary to do a proper setup on the action--string height, length, whammy--everything.
I THOUGHT I had done this in the past, but as I worked and listened the Strat sound that I had missed for 20 years began to reveal itself while the guitar was on the bench--without amplification. By the time I was through, my $200 used copy had the classic Strat honk when played through my little Fender amp. It's the best it has ever sounded or played. Other musicians have commented on it, too. (And I'm embarrassed that it took me so long to figure out.)
The importance of having your guitar set up properly cannot be overemphasized.
R.
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It sure sounds like a phase shifter, but I'm thinking he's going through an effects box I know Roland makes a modeling effects box for acoustic guitar - there may be some stomp boxes that could produce that effect - there are so many out there? Could also be like a computer - Guitar Rig or one of those. Sounds like the treble is pulled down to get the nylon sound (which could also be part of the effect) and you can hear him damping the strings pretty hard with the palm of his hand, probably to keep the effects from being too pronounced as it sounds like he has a lot of the effect going on and it seems to feedback and battle with the rhythm of his picking at times.
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I know what you guys mean. It goes on, and on. Now I don't know whether or not to get a different acoustic, before I start all this, or not. I could sink money into my Fender or Yamaha, now that I have some answers, or just buy a better guitar, and then use all this knowledge? That would open up a brand new thread, that would go on forever, if I dared ask what kind of guitar to get. Ha Ha. . . not going there. I did get a nice tax return, I could buy a Martin, but do I really need to. I'm the kind of guy that would rather take a road worn medium quality guitar, and give it what it needs with after market TLC to end up with something that I like. I have taken many ugly electrics, and added a Floyd Rose and Grovers, and active pick ups. . . Repainted them, and really felt a sense of pride with the sound. I'll never forget the time I bought the electric Eddie Van Halen plays, with the wierd head piece that comes to a point? What a piece of C R # $. (no offense to anyone who might own one).
Well, the Quest goes on. This year I'm gonna figure out everything that has been nagging me.
Gene
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Gene-I listen to many guitar players. The things that I have learned are-
Use a good PA-gives a nice natural stereo sound-if you can't do that a stereo pedal.
A chorus pedal/phase shift/reverb/
With these simple things you should be able to get the sound you are looking for.
For me I find after a while I get tired of those effects. I'm leaning towards a nice warm acoustic sound which comes from a great guitar.
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Luvs3rds,
The sound that is in the song snippet you posted could have come from a well under $500 guitar. If that is the sound you are looking for, please do not spend the money on an expensive acoustic at this point in time.
It sounds like you have two different acoustic guitars, a Fender and a Yamaha.
I think that the sound you posted is coming from likely a removable soundhole pickup.
Take your two guitars to a local shop where they sell removable soundhole pickups. Make sure the guitars are setup by a well-known luthier in the area first. Then ssk to try the pickups aon your two guitars, into a signal chain that first EQ's the signal, then compresses the signal, then passes it through a touch of chorus and then light reverb.
Your two acoustics will take on some magic you probably haven't heard before.
Based on the sound posted, I have no idea what kind of guitar that the player had that you posted. There is no character of an acoustic guitar there to tell what it might be. Can't tell whether it's a dreadnaught, grand concert, etc. It could even be an electric guitar through one of those acoustic guitar simulator circuits because it sounds so 'unnatural' as an acoustic guitar.
Now, if you do start playing a higher end acoustic guitar, you WILL hear a difference compared to a sub-$500 guitar, all other things being equal (new strings, both guitars setup properly, etc.) with it's acoustic, unplugged sound. But the sound you will hear will bear no similarity to the sound in the song you posted. You may fall in love with the real sound of a delightful acoustic guitar. That is a different matter altogether, but it will not sound like the sound that you posted.
I believe we are in a golden age of well-crafted beautiful sounding acoustic guitars. I'm not saying that this is as good as it gets, but there are so many different brands out there in the $500-$1500 range that have simply killer sounding acoustics, each with their own beauty and purpose, that it is very difficult to choose.
I'm partial to the Larrivee brand for many reasons - not the least of which was getting a personal tour of their Oxnard, CA factory from Jean Larrivee himself back 5 or 6 years ago. I've seen how those guitars are made first hand.
But there are many others out there. Beware of Martin and Taylor. You will pay a premium for those names; perhaps 15-25% than an similarly equipped Larrivee or Seagull, or (fill in the blank). They have well-earned name recognition that commands a price. I love both Martins and Taylors, for different reasons, but I think they are overpriced these days.
-Scott
Last edited by rockstar_not; 05/06/09 06:22 AM.
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Quote:
Luvs3rds, Based on the sound posted, I have no idea what kind of guitar that the player had that you posted.
I went to Dale's site. In every picture he is holding an Ovation acoustic steel string without electronics, so he is either micing it or using a soundhole pickup.
Quote:
. . . there are many others out there. Beware of Martin and Taylor. You will pay a premium for those names; perhaps 15-25% [more] than a similarly equipped Larrivee or Seagull, or (fill in the blank). They have well-earned name recognition that commands a price. I love both Martins and Taylors, for different reasons, but I think they are overpriced these days.
-Scott
Alvarez-Yairi is essentially a custom-shop Alvarez and still represents a tremendous bargain. I bought mine from Dean Markley himself when he had a small shop in Santa Clara, CA, saying that I wanted the guitar that was going to last me the rest of my life. He put it in my hands in 1972 and I still have it.
Takamines are still a tremendous value and use that palathetic pickup they first put into the mass production marketplace and which, if you aren't installing a Baggs, is the way to go. (I traded an acoustic Takamine 12-string for my first PC and am still wondering about that deal. I got my money's worth, but that thing played perfectly right off the music-shop peg . . .) There are many great values in the $500-$1000 range, but again, if yours are properly set u they may be all you need, at least for playing live.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Quote:
For me I find after a while I get tired of those effects. I'm leaning towards a nice warm acoustic sound which comes from a great guitar.
AMEN, Ed!
--Mac
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Ryszard,
Very cool story about your Yairi. Regarding Ovations, it's kind of hard to tell when they are 'lectrified' from photos because they did a decent job hiding the knobs and jack. For example, on my shallow bowl Applause (Kind of like Ovation's "Squier"), the volume and tone control knobs rested in the waist between the upper and lower bouts, and the jack was not a typical end-pin jack. It came off the back of the bowl, kind of between the lower bout and the end pin. Ovations and Applause guitars kind of tip up towards your face when you wear them (at least on me), so the cord that would be plugged in points almost directly toward the floor.
Anyway, I ruined that guitar and it was providential - it lead me to Larrivee in the end and also to wider necks in general. My Applause had a neck that was probably modeled after a Strat.
Luvs3rds - best wishes. Get those Fender and Yamahas setup by a decent luthier first.
Last edited by rockstar_not; 05/06/09 09:12 PM.
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I think I will. I didn't even consider any of that stuff. I always just replaced strings, and thought all was good. I'm learning that guitars "off the shelf" can be enhanced considerably.
Gene
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I play a 1981 Ovation Baladeer that, to me, sounds fantastic. Projects very loud and clear, with surprisingly good bass tones. ( never known for there low end) For really mellow sound with great...I mean great lows....I play a 1992 Guild. Action's not nearly as good as the Ovation, but it sounds great for rhythm.
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I don't guitar at all.
I don't get makin' an accoustic guitar electric, I'm maybe too old.
Accoustic guitar in a small venue is environ-mentally friendly. Takes no coal to make it run.
The whole concept sounds wierd to me. Kinda like asking someone to take a 12 foot grand and make it electric.
When I was a kid my dad did the sound for the church who had the service taped and played back the next week on the radio. He put one big silver mike under the piano and another under the tilted up lid. 10 mics, a mixing board and tape drives.
Still remember my 2 brothers and i sitting beside my Mom, and Dad was up in the 'control' room and about 2 minutes before church started he turned on the system only to pick up the local rock and roll station playing Buddy Holly. He turned it down and ran down and pulled mics until the radio went away. Brought out a different cord for the mic and never heard that radio again.
I can still get the local radio on my keyboard if I hook it up just so. Drives me nuts, but I've learned to use the headphone jack not the Left line out, that's the radio reciever!
All this probably goes back to the hippy chick with the 12 string she played in the park while we sang blowin in the wind....Mom wanted to buy her a bra LOL. I liked that summer a lot. See some of do remember a bit of the '60's! Just Joe Cocker can't be one of them.....
John Conley
Musica est vita
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If the guitar had a 12 foot sounding board like your rather large Grand Piano, it likely wouldn't need amplification either...
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Ya, 1965, Dylan ruined guitar playing.
Early Everly Bros, Peter Paul and Mary, Lightfoot, et al. Then we got overamped, screaching.
I understand that you can't do acoustic in front of 20,000 people in central park without a mic but holy heck I hated it when Hendrix turned the American Anthem into a whacked out drug infested..never mind, you guitar players all probably liked that.
I took a video recorder to a cover band I was playing in and listened to each song, made some suggestions and just dropped out. As hard as I tried the bass guitar guy just cranked and the lead guitar guy cranked and then the other and back and forth and all you could hear was noise.
Something to be said for hearing the frets and a real accoustic guitar played by someone who has the thing down.
And even the big ol' grand can be muted..about 4 ways.
My upright has 4 inches of foam behind it between the piano and the wall for a reason.
I have run into venues where their acoustic piano won't play the hall due to the configuration. And I drag out the amps and the Roland, but it's still too loud at the front and not enough at the back and the audience has 1/2 the people with hearing aids running out the back door. The other half can't hear properly.
I guess that's part of playing in the 60's and being old. Means everyone in the room is 60 to 70. And like me awake at 4 am 'cause it's gonna storm and my knees ache.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I appreciate all the informative responses from all of you. I found the original of Tree Top flier by Stills, that is closer to the sound I can not find. I don't expect everyone to reiterate everything that was said above. I did read them all. The sound is sort of a boing, rounded sound. Sounds like compression maybe to take the brashness out of the treble of the strings. Listen where he solos at about 2:00 minutes. It is very clear there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duAn9ZBgD6k&feature=relatedGene
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Luvs3rds,
That is a little more of a mic'ed guitar sound. In fact, it's possible that it is mostly mic'ed and only a little bit of a direct from piezo-under saddle transducer. One thing is sure, there is either a delay'ed doubled track, or chorus applied to the sound. There is some compression as you expected.
Again, I think you can probably accomplish a sound similar to this with either one of your existing acoustic guitars because the sound is so heavily processed - there is very little character of the acoustic guitar's 'acoustic-ness' in the sound.
Do you have any pickups in either one of your guitars? Note the difference between this sound and the first post you made. With this one, there is more string squeak that sounds like it came through the air rather than through the strings. That's coming from a mic most likely. The 'snappy/plasticky' sound sounds more like it's coming from an under saddle transducer pickup. I'm guessing this was even a thin-body acoustic/electric type of guitar because the low end is all strings and no body resonance of the guitar. Or the recording engineer had the mic up by the fretting hand and rolled off the lows.
-Scott
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That's a studio cut.
Sounds like a large diaphragm condenser mic (likely more'n one) in a very well acoustically prepared room. Thru a super mic preamp. Onto analog tape.
And that is almost certainly Stills' famous D-45 at work.
And some high end effects gear in rack...
--Mac
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Rockstar and Mac;
Ok. Thank you for your opinions. My Yammy has two pickups, one under the bridge, and a round one I put in front of the bridge underneath. My Fender has nothing. I think I will run the Fender thru the shop to set it up by a luthier, and order a Baggs for it. Then I can try various hook ups as mentioned above, and see what comes of it.
Thank you to everyone who took the time to respond. I read each and every one, more than once. You guys are truly a wealth of information.
Gene
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Quote:
Stills:
"There are guitars where because of the chording technique and the attack on the G string, when you play a D chord, it'll get out of tune. So I use a Gretsch with the biggest strings, a wound third string. Solves the whole problem. Once they start putting pickups on my 50-year old guitars, rather than using the damn microphone, I don't care if it's the Forum or Yankee Stadium, once they start doing that, I might as well play on the electric guitar, where I know what's going to happen. The difference in sound is not that great. They put an eight-ounce piece of plastic in the sound-hole of my 58-year old Martin D-45 - which is worth about $15,000.-$20,000. - to make is sound good in the hall. And I said, "Hang on. Wait just one minute here. You've got this all wrong. Your job is to reproduce that sound in the hall, the sound of that instrument." I paid $6000. dollars for a guitar that was not really worth it, but they only made 125 before World War II. I have two of the best that they made. It's as simple as that. The sound man's job is not to mess with that. Find a little contact pickup if you want, but use it in conjunction with the microphone. In the studio, I use a Neumann 87 or a Telefunken, or an AKG, or a 546, or all four to reproduce the sound of this particular guitar. There are some other devices used the way I set my limiters. What kind of limiters I use, what kind of equalization, how much Poltec and how much of that, those are my main trade secrets. Where the trick is, which all the engineers and producers lose sight of, is that you have to reproduce a guitar."
" I use Fender Rock ‘n’ Rolls, light gauge or extra-light gauge and bronze Earthworks for my acoustics I have one set of pre-CBS Fender flatwounds for my basses. I use “silk and steels,” and Savarez for my Spanish guitar. When I do use a flat pick, I usually use a thin one and my fingers to play bass. Rotosound bass strings aren’t bad. I keep bass strings on for a year, if not longer, and that’s about all."
DTuna
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Well, If I'm Steven Stills, and I'm paying thousands of dollars for acoustic guitar, no matter what brand, I would be firing the recording engineer who wrecked the sound of those guitars with the processing. Everything that he rants about using pickups rather than mics in D. Tuna's post is what sounds wonky with his guitar in the youtube video. Here's live concert footage with an end-pin jack in place and it's nearly the same exact sound. Missing some mic'ed string squeak is about the only difference to the previous YouTube. Maybe there's one of those little condenser's inside, but it sounds mostly pickup to me. From the looks of the haircuts, I'm guessing this pre-dates internal condenser mics in general. It's all that farty and 'acky' snap sound and doubled or chorused. I'd lay money that endpin jack has a Fishman style UST on the business end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUmIO_MG5IU&feature=relatedIt just doesn't sound like the way an acoustic guitar should to me. I would love to hear that Martin naturally, rather than through a pickup. No doubt he's a good player, but the beauty of the ancient slothead Martin is completely and totally gone in both of these clips. Great playing, but it likely wouldn't sound any different on a sub $500 Yamaha with Stephen at the helm given the same exact signal chain. To hear a more acoustic sound, the KEL microphones page has some decent sound clips. Here's one: http://www.kelaudio.com/acoustic_full_mix.mp3Those guitars sound much more expensive to me than the Stills examples. You can almost hear the 'wood' in the sound. Can almost guarantee that they aren't multi-thousand dollar collector pieces either. Here's another one in a style that isn't terribly different than the Stills song: http://www.kelaudio.com/hm1xyacoustic1.mp3Gene - you can get very close to the Stills sound, playing ability aside, with the I-beam you plan to buy. In fact, you can get a better sound than that from it. If you are really looking for the electrified sound that these have - the signal chain of Compression/EQ, or EQ/Compression then a doubler either from a very short delay or a chorus will serve you well. You should also be able to get it with the Yamaha. I don't know what kind of pickup is 'the round one in front of the bridge'. Key settings will be the EQ you choose, the level of compression you choose and the delay setting to get the doubled 'fat' sound. Here's a better guitar than the yamaha / fenders, but certainly not in the Still's league - with a K+K bridge-plate transducer into a K+K preamp, not mic'ed whatsoever. With the LR Baggs, you'll get something pretty similar. With this recording, the only thing that isn't quite 'natural' is the little-bit-too-loud bass response you hear sometimes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZbWWgLUjCY The video was made by one of the regular guys over at the Larrivee forums. To Still's point in his rant, I've seen large diaphragm condensers used in live performance to get a real acoustic sound. Last year when Allison Krauss and Union Station played in Detroit, they used one for some of the songs. You'll seem 'em on Austin City Limits quite often with players that are sitting and not alot of guitar amps and drums around to bleed in to the sides of the polar pattern. -Scott
Last edited by rockstar_not; 05/12/09 10:45 PM.
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The first vid posted is definitely NOT Steve's prewar D-45.
Maybe a new Martin with factory p/u from the sound (and look) of it.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac - Special Offers End at 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th, 2026!
Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.
Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.
If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!
202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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