PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums PowerTracks Pro Audio Frustrating!

I'm trying to get some good trumpet / flugelhorn recorded and I'm having serious quality issues as well as process issues.

OK, have Behringer Xenyx1222 USB mixer. My flugehorn sounded strangely paper thin when recorded, especially on low sections. I was using the MME default driver for Windows audio device (not Behringer). I then saw this error and changed to Behringer driver.

I THINK this solved the paper thin sound as it's much better but not great. MY mic is a Shure Beta 58 playing REAL close to get a fuller sound. Further away is worse, and I tried an MXL R144 but this sounds to metallic. Ugh.

I tried using ASIO driver after this with varied samplerates and get all random clicks and pops here and (Vista Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 2.6GHz - it's a few years old desktop) and the audio is shifted. I had the shifted audio with MME and use the Vista Offse thing set (setting in PT) to like 80ms. But this setting has not effect with ASIO...

Bought a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 and it MAYBE seems a little better audiowise but same issue with pops/clicks/and shifted audio.

Back to MME.

The PG Reverb sounds really really really bad with trumpet so I'm using REVERBERATELE, a free convolution VST that sounds GREAT.

Thought I had it pretty licked until I choose: Merge Audio and VST..to stereo trackto mx down. Now listening to the output WAV file, the reverb vst doesn't seem to activate until some random time into the song. OMG.

Choosing the "Merge Audio... to WMA file" This WORKS. Why, I don't know. But now I'm stuck with a WMA file not mp3.

I've owned this s/w since 2002 and took like 8 years off, upgraded to 2012, then got serious this year with 2013 and I don't think this is gonna work!

Anyone have any better luck?

I've been seeing someone named Matt Finley with a Flugelhorn on here, maybe he has some wisdom?

Thanks to anyone in advance,

JCousins

Hi JC,

Trumpet is my main instrument. and Flugel, of course.

First things first, the cable used to connect that Beta 58 to the input of the Mic Preamp should have an XLR three pin connector at both ends. If you are attempting to use a cable that terminates in a 1/4" plug, that right there is the problem.

I'm suspecting that you are having what we call Gain Staging problems.

That can be due to setting Mic Gain at input too low, or too high even, for the recording part of the issue.

Then there is the Playback side, in which the gain of the track(s) being played back can sound "thin" if the software sound device output settings to the amplified speakers is not set high enough to drive the amp input properly. Here it is not good to send a lower signal from the pc and then attempt to turn it up at the monitor speaker amp. The opposite should be the case. Fortunately, the softwares feature both Input and Output VU meters and they should be your guide to what's going on there.

As for Close Mic'ing Trumpet and Flugel, that may not be a good idea if what you are going to play varies in dynamic level throughout. Might try backing off the Mic distance, but no too much.

Set your Recording Input levels such that the Input VU meter is hovering at about the -6dB level and no higher when you play as loud as you can.

I'd also advise solving one problem at a time here, concentrate on getting a good sound from the Dry track before even attempting with any Reverb (The PGMusic supplied Reverb plugin can sound world class with Trumpets and Flugels, btw, but that, too, takes a bit of a learning curve as to what the settings do and how they work, what the desired ambience is and should be, things like that.

The Beta 58 is not the problem no matter what other internet experts might want to tell you. It can turn in a great performance with these instruments. There are just those folks who want to tell you that a more expensive mic, a larger diaphragm mic, a Phantom Powered mic, etc. is "better". That's not entirely true. For example, the big condenser diaphragm can be problematic in that it may pick up more of the sound of an acoustically bad room in the home environment. Or it may prove to be very sensitive and the large dynamic range the horns are easily capable of producing can drive the input into distortion where the Shure Brothers' classic dynmaic mic design would prove much more forgiving.

There's a learning curve to recording on computers, but fear not, you have posted in the right place to obtain that necessary knowledge as painlessly as possible.


--Mac

Some of your issues are common new learning curve type items.
However when I read

That threw me off.
Try using 'Track - Consolidate audio region' feature. Make sure you have the whole track selected beforehand. This sometimes helps with weird things like this because it rewrites where the beginning of the audio is, and gently forces some 'rogue' plugins to behave more as expected in this regard.
Use Save As to save the file and then try using the Merge function (to audio) again.

Hi John. You already have some great suggestions above. I like the Shure Beta 58 a lot, and also the regular 58. The next step up would be a ribbon mic, rather than the condensers, to avoid that metallic sound you already discovered, but those are quite a bit more expensive.

It sounds like you need to spend a little time adjusting the ASIO driver for your soundcard, to set the buffers correctly to avoid clicks/pops. However, you mentioned reverb. It will tax your system more to have the VST reverb on while you record, and if that's what you are doing (because it does sound better) try not using the reverb to see if that helps avoid the clicks/pops. Then apply the convolution reverb during playback.

Ah HA!

"Consolidating Audio Region" - THIS WORKED (also did the Save As, so I'm not sure which one really did the trick.)

Thanks to all 3 of you - here's some clarifications:

- I'm using an XLR cable from the mic to the Scarlett.
- I'm not watching the VU meters, but I've adjusted my Gain of the Scarlett to be green/yellow for most of what I'm playing, and then I get a maybe 40-80% "fullness" on the pictured wave in PT.
- Thanks for the info on the Beta 58. I've been thinking of shelling out big bucks for a new mic, but then I happened upon the Lewitt mic samples on SoundCloud and heard my Beta58 which sounded OK! More specifically, any improvements would cost me SEVERAL hundred dollars - and it just didn't seem to justify the cost).

- Yes, I definitely don't try to monitor with the Reverb on...at least I think!

Guys, I'm interested to see if anyone would take a listen to a dry track I've recorded (at least just a portion) to see if it's ANYWHERE even close to ... er ... "pro?" quality. Lol.

I'm rather not post it for everyone to access, unless that's the norm.
Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks in advance!

John

Feel free to send me a PM here with a link to sample, John.


--Mac

OMG guys.

I spoke a bit with some guys here and I think we got the sound figured out...trumpetwise.

However, I'm still having this "no plugins doing anything for awhile" in the Merge...to Stereo Wave.

It's the problem that seemed to have been fixed with "Consolidate..." and "Save As."

I've got a .SEQ that I can't seem to kick in with this.
I even tried to export all the tracks individually, then put them one by one into a new .SEQ, load up the VSTs (load group) and that didn't work, either.

One thing I did notice is that the output of the merge is MONO, too. Maybe this is something else to go on?

Incidentally, the one track that was stereo successfully went out as stereo when I exported just that track. Interesting. And frustrating.

Thanks in advance,

John


EDIT: more useful info:

If I have the VST open on the screen when the merging is taking place, I can visually see the plug in go blank (no convolution happening) as it seems to be initializing when the "song start." This happens when I hit the play button, too but it comes to life faster than when it's merging. When merging, it takes SEVERAL seconds to come to life and by this time, the song is 1/2 merged already.

I replaced that with PGReverb, and it stays on the whole time I see.

BUT, still mono!

Post exactly each thing you do to get the Merge right now, in a step-by-step description.

There is likely something going on as to the method and commands used that is either misunderstood or the likes.

My question regarding this problem, "Can you hear the Effects as you want them to sound when just playing the tracks back within PT?" (by just hitting the Play button)

There is another way to make sure you get exactly what you hear, and that is the "Destructive" method of applying effects.

Apply the effect to the Track and tune it in as desired to hear.

Then ARM a new track, and, routing the soundcard outputs and inputs correctly so that you are recording into the input what comes out of the output using the software mixer connects for the soundcard's mixer (NOT the PT mixer) and SOLO that one track, Record its playback, complete with the Effects, to the new Track.

Once that has been done, from beginning to end, simply Mute the original track and go ahead with your mixdown using the new track with the Effects on it.

Never erase or kill the original track, keep it in case you ever should want to revisit the Effects settings for a redo.

Sometimes I'll elect to have BOTH tracks playing back at the same time, using the Faders on the PT Mixer to bring the Wet track up at different times while the Dry track plays back the whole time. This sort of "Active" mixdown can be very effective.


--Mac

It plays perfectly when I just hit the PLAY button - in stereo.

I choose, (ugh, can't remember which menu option it comes from but)...something like "Merge Tracks to Stereo WAV File." There's 3 options in that menu that are almost the same (there's Merge to Compressed File, and Merge Track to WMA/MPA/MP3 or something like that - I pick the FIRST (top) one).

That option is a godsend when it works as I remember back in the day having to do what you describe with the "desctructive" playback/record. Actually I guess I "played" all the tracks and "recorded" onto a new track.
------------------
I think PT does something to initialize the plug ins when doing the fast MERGE thing. It's like it "plays" the song...FAST.

OK, I can deal with the fact the PT and the reverb plugin I have (ReverberateLE) aren't totally great together on the MERGE.

But the stereo is a showstopper as it does this with PG Reverb plug in, too.

I'm stumped

If it plays fine and you use 'Merge audio and DXi to stereo wave file' they should be the same.