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Hi, I've been a BIAB user since 1990, but never used RB much, so I'm kind of a newbie. I have a specific application, maybe someone can help.
I'm trying to play back 3-track MIDI files. Track one plays a live disklavier piano, then MIDI tracks 2 and 10 play bass and drums on a VST or DXI plugin. Problem is, disklavier has 500mm delay on playback. I managed to delay the other tracks by 500mm and things synced fine, but I don't know how to save this template so I don't have to do it each time I load a new song. The save as template option seems to have something to do with audio, I don't really get it.
Also, which plugin sounds better for MIDI, Coyote or Sampletank?
Thanks in advance...
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Quick solution would be to record the diskclavier audio output to an audio track .. this should make the problem go away right away.
The buffers should compensate for this issue if set correctly. Might want to try the 'Soft Synth Latency adjust' button in Options-Preferences-audio tab.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quick solution would be to record the diskclavier audio output to an audio track .. this should make the problem go away right away.
The buffers should compensate for this issue if set correctly. Might want to try the 'Soft Synth Latency adjust' button in Options-Preferences-audio tab. The disklavier is an acoustic piano with sensors and motors. I wanted to have the piano track play the piano "live" (keys and pedals move up and down) and sync bass and drum track with "live" playing. To record the output one needs to use mics, unless it is used as a MIDI controller with a virtual piano - which I do as well. Yes, I had adjusted the latency, and it synced everything up - just couldn't save all the settings as a template in which I could load other songs. Is there a way to do this? Thanks for your help!
Last edited by Sam Kanter; 01/06/14 08:16 PM.
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Your problem is latency. I assume you are using a factory sound card and very likely, the default MME sound drivers. This works OK for BB and RB as long as synths are not in the picture. My lappy runs MME (sound card driver)and the PG software just fine..... but when I go to RB and have any synths (midi tracks) in the project, the latency is horrendous on the factory card and MME.
You can try increasing the buffers and lower the latency settings. Sometimes that will help.
Another option is to try ASIO4ALL. It's a band-aid sort of solution. Sometimes it works and sometimes not.
The best solution is to upgrade to a better "pro-audio" interface for musical purposes. They use ASIO drivers and once you install it, the problem of "delayed tracks" goes away since they are able to handle the processing of synths in real time. My studio DAW is running a Focusrite interface without issues. Essentially no latency for all practical purposes.
Delaying the other tracks is one workaround, but it's a PITB to do every time. An interface will fix that issue.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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...Problem is, disklavier has 500mm delay on playback.... First let's get our terminology straight. "mm" is a measurement from one linear point to another, "millimeter". Latency figures for MIDI softsynth and Audio Drivers are measured in milliSeconds, "mS" which is a unit of time. 1 mS = 1/1000th of a Second. Now let's all understand what this man has in the way of his disclavier. This is a PIANO that can appear to play itself when MIDI commands are sent to it. It uses internal motors driven by processor-controlled PWM amplifiers to actually pull keys down and really "play" the real acoustic piano. It is NOT a typical MIDI electronic keyboard. That said, I would think that the problem with software such as RealBand is that the disclavier likely needs MORE time than the internal softsynths do, so I would be experimenting with the Latency setting inside RealBand and likely setting it to much higher numbers than those used for "normal" recording and such. --Mac
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It would be interesting to see if running it on a pro-quality interface would solve that issue with latency, even factoring that it has mechanical motion to account for.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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It would be more interesting to know what the OP is already running, which has not been cited.
Anyone who can afford a Diskclavier...
--Mac
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Your problem is latency. I assume you are using a factory sound card and very likely, the default MME sound drivers. This works OK for BB and RB as long as synths are not in the picture. My lappy runs MME (sound card driver)and the PG software just fine..... but when I go to RB and have any synths (midi tracks) in the project, the latency is horrendous on the factory card and MME.
You can try increasing the buffers and lower the latency settings. Sometimes that will help.
Another option is to try ASIO4ALL. It's a band-aid sort of solution. Sometimes it works and sometimes not.
The best solution is to upgrade to a better "pro-audio" interface for musical purposes. They use ASIO drivers and once you install it, the problem of "delayed tracks" goes away since they are able to handle the processing of synths in real time. My studio DAW is running a Focusrite interface without issues. Essentially no latency for all practical purposes.
Delaying the other tracks is one workaround, but it's a PITB to do every time. An interface will fix that issue. Guitarhacker, you've misunderstood. I do use a pro audio interface, M-Audio Delta internal soundcard. The disklavier is a motorized acoustic piano that has a 500ms delay due to the time it takes to get the motors and solonoids to make the piano hammers go up and down after receiving MIDI information.
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...Problem is, disklavier has 500mm delay on playback.... First let's get our terminology straight. "mm" is a measurement from one linear point to another, "millimeter". Latency figures for MIDI softsynth and Audio Drivers are measured in milliSeconds, "mS" which is a unit of time. 1 mS = 1/1000th of a Second. Now let's all understand what this man has in the way of his disclavier. This is a PIANO that can appear to play itself when MIDI commands are sent to it. It uses internal motors driven by processor-controlled PWM amplifiers to actually pull keys down and really "play" the real acoustic piano. It is NOT a typical MIDI electronic keyboard. That said, I would think that the problem with software such as RealBand is that the disclavier likely needs MORE time than the internal softsynths do, so I would be experimenting with the Latency setting inside RealBand and likely setting it to much higher numbers than those used for "normal" recording and such. --Mac Mac, you are correct. I thought I had fully explained in a previous post what a disklavier is, (long story how I ended up with this amazing device) and why the delay is happening. I actually have already changed the latency settings (500ms) of the non-disklavier tracks and gotten everything to sync! The issue I have is saving this setting as a template so I don't have to make new settings every time I load a new song.(sorry I typod mm instead of ms - I know the difference! ;-) BTW, it's amazing watching the piano play live with recorded tracks! If anyone sends me MIDI files of piano performances, my piano will play them with keys and pedals going up and down, dynamics - the exact performance. Is there a way to save settings for a song, then load in new song with old settings?
Last edited by Sam Kanter; 01/08/14 11:04 PM.
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It would be more interesting to know what the OP is already running, which has not been cited.
Anyone who can afford a Diskclavier...
--Mac I can't afford a disklavier - I won it in a poker game. I use an M-Audio Delta Audiophile internal sound card.
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It would be interesting to see if running it on a pro-quality interface would solve that issue with latency, even factoring that it has mechanical motion to account for. No interface could solve the issue. The disklavier needs 500ms after receiving MIDI data to actually get it's hammers and pedals to play the music. This is an electro-mechanical device. IT cannot do things instantly.
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Guitarhacker, you've misunderstood. I do use a pro audio interface, M-Audio Delta internal soundcard. The disklavier is a motorized acoustic piano that has a 500ms delay due to the time it takes to get the motors and solonoids to make the piano hammers go up and down after receiving MIDI information.
Ah... and that is the first time in this convo that you mentioned that tidbit of information. We can not read minds and have to go on what little information we are often given. Now it does make sense. You are the first person I've spoken with who actually has an electro-mechanical (e-m) piano. If the 500ms delay is a permanent function, you will need to use a work around every time. I know that many DAW's do allow users to save preset templates. However, I'm not really sure how one would save a 500ms delay on all tracks except the e-m piano. My thoughts would be..... while the e-m piano is cool, and probably a chick magnet..... I'd use it only on rare occasions and switch to using softsynth pianos. That way, you have no delays to worry with and changing the sound of the piano is as simple as loading a new sample set. Of course, that's just me.... I often take the path of least resistance when it comes to music recording and very often, life in general. Unless something really, matters and it's down a harder path.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 01/09/14 04:54 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Ah... and that is the first time in this convo that you mentioned that tidbit of information.
We can not read minds and have to go on what little information we are often given.
No its not the first time at all. He even clarified it specifically in his second post:
The disklavier is an acoustic piano with sensors and motors. I wanted to have the piano track play the piano "live" (keys and pedals move up and down) and sync bass and drum track with "live" playing.
Then, I even re-explained that in my followups. The level of snark is uncalled for, we should all be about trying to help solve problems, regardless. And you only have pointed out your own lack of whatever by doing that. Build a man up, nothing good can come of tearing a man down, Dig. --Mac
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Guitarhacker, you've misunderstood. I do use a pro audio interface, M-Audio Delta internal soundcard. The disklavier is a motorized acoustic piano that has a 500ms delay due to the time it takes to get the motors and solonoids to make the piano hammers go up and down after receiving MIDI information.
Ah... and that is the first time in this convo that you mentioned that tidbit of information. We can not read minds and have to go on what little information we are often given. Now it does make sense. You are the first person I've spoken with who actually has an electro-mechanical (e-m) piano. If the 500ms delay is a permanent function, you will need to use a work around every time. I know that many DAW's do allow users to save preset templates. However, I'm not really sure how one would save a 500ms delay on all tracks except the e-m piano. My thoughts would be..... while the e-m piano is cool, and probably a chick magnet..... I'd use it only on rare occasions and switch to using softsynth pianos. That way, you have no delays to worry with and changing the sound of the piano is as simple as loading a new sample set. Of course, that's just me.... I often take the path of least resistance when it comes to music recording and very often, life in general. Unless something really, matters and it's down a harder path. Mac already admonished you for your carelessness in reading the thread and attitude in your post. Not quite enough, however, as your advice about the "chick magnet" and suggestion to use a softsynth instead is also presumptuous and plain wrong. I understand that the disklavier is a unique and very expensive instrument that few have experience with. I own one through a unique situation, I could normally never afford one. Although I explained it, you still have no idea what I'm trying to do. Having a piano play "live" is a completely different experience than hearing a recording of a softsynth, and an excellent tool for instruction.. I use Synthogy Ivory American Concert D for recording, so I know about quality virtual pianos. The disklavier is a different beast, and a terrific instrument for a pianist in hearing performances and teaching. I don't take the path of least resistance... My original question was about saving a template with latency settings on tracks - still no reply to that.
Last edited by Sam Kanter; 01/09/14 11:54 AM.
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Whoa...slow down BOTH of you. I don't always say things right but I certainly do not try to be obnoxious or say things in a mean spirited way. Let me reply and I hope you don't think this is snarky.... if you do, well.......
Mac.... you sir are making incorrect assumptions. Until I mentioned using a pro audio interface, THAT tidbit was not disclosed. Not in a post or in a signature. I understood that the piano is mechanical and has an inherent delay in it as I progressed through the posts. The audio interface was not mentioned yet...in the reply to me it was mentioned for the first time. .....That.... is what I was referring to and not in a "snarky" way. If you read my posts, I am trying to offer ideas that might be helpful.
Sam.... get a sense of humor. "chick magnet".... humor.... Unless you're a chick in which case "Samantha"... I could see how you might be upset over that humorous attempt on my part.... back to the topic at hand..... And pay close attention here....... I do understand what you're trying to do and I did offer you some advice about templates and saving them.
I stated:
Now it does make sense. You are the first person I've spoken with who actually has an electro-mechanical (e-m) piano. If the 500ms delay is a permanent function, you will need to use a work around every time. I know that many DAW's do allow users to save preset templates. However, I'm not really sure how one would save a 500ms delay on all tracks except the e-m piano.
can we lighten up a bit.... a bit of humor and ..... really, I'm just trying to help.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 01/10/14 05:54 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Try changing the delay setting an a blank (New) file and then saving the file as $OPTIONS.seq RB and PT will load this when it opens, as the default, *if* it exists. It may save those settings for you.. 
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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SO herbie dog, can i call you Mr. Snarkey from now on?!?!? i have to admit i had several thought about kinda of handed Disklavier jokes but thought better of it.
Guys, Herb, Guitarhacker, does not need my help to defend himself, but really i was a tad surprised by the response. I saw his post as trying to help, even if it did seem like he missed the one point. We all have either done that, or it seemed we did before.
Macster, my old friend you know i have nothin but luv fer ya bud, but that seemed a bit feisty. I have know Herb for quite some time now, he is a great guy and has spent countless hours helping folks for nothing. Just like you my old friend Macster.
hows about a good ole group hug!!!! hey hey hey none of that watch yer hands Sam! Ah much better!
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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SO herbie dog, can i call you Mr. Snarkey from now on?!?!? i have to admit i had several thought about kinda of handed Disklavier jokes but thought better of it.
call me anything you want except late for supper.... I'm good with that. 
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Oh sorry supper was about an hour ago, think it is still warm on the stove though!
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Back to Sam's problem:
Sam, I would try using MME sound drivers selection inside RB's Prefs -> Audio and then start manually adjusting the Latency figure in the Latency timing block in an effort to see if I could find a setting that would allow for the amount of time needed for the disclavier to respond at the right time.
The method I would use is the old machinist's "Rule of Halves" at first, which is simple enough, pick a large latency time, say 500mS and play a MIDI file, while watching the onscreen piano keyboard highlight or the notation window note highlighting, in an effort to get an idea if that number is too fast, too slow, etc.
Dividing the figure in half and trying again, or if the thing seems to be working "the other way around" then try multiplying the original figure by two, shou;d be able to narrow it down to an area of time, from there on it would be a matter of lightly tweaking that number until onscreen display and disclavier are in sync.
Of course, this would only work with files that are addressing ONLY the diskclavier and not another MIDI synth, be that software or hardware type, as the newly found longer latency figure would likely throw those off in timing. But it could be a first step and perhaps after solving the disclavier problem there might be a workaround for using other MIDI sounds with it, perhaps. Solo disclavier would work fine then, though.
--Mac
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