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There's a lot of theory/advice around re improvisation along the lines of : 'play x over y'.
Well, I'm a joiner as well as a musician, so the idea of an 'offset' is something I'm very comfortable with.
A lot of said advice is expressed by means of the modes.
E.g. "over G7 play from G myxolidian but avoid the 4th".
Now, the modes at not at my fingertips, but if I work this out, it seems to mean:
"over G7, improvise from/in C major, but avoid C itself";
or more generally: "over a (dominant) 7th, improvise a line in the key one step down the (key-)cycle, but avoid its tonic."
If that's how I express it to myself, am I missing something ?
Is the reference to the mode essential ?
Is there any implication (for instance) that the modal tonic (G in the case cited) should often be the go-to (or go-from?) note in the line ?
Sincerely
Ian G.
Late-developing enthusiast for jazz / blues. Principally pianist
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Studying the modes is a good way to start, but it is not an end-all or be-all situation.
ANY way you can "view" them will work as long as you end up playing the right notes over the chord. This is simply a matter of perception.
The real purpose of these kind of drills is to keep working with the thing until you start to internalize the sound, the "taste" of the mode over the given chord. Once you do that, the thing becomes more like a "macro" where you won't be thinking about it in the same way at all. It becomes a pallette of possibilities that you can choose from in realtime.
It takes time working with the modes a little bit each day for all this to start sinking in.
Don't neglect a bit of daily Ear Training drills along with the modal practice. Pick a key and try to play every simple melody you can think of in that key for about ten to twenty minutes a day, trying to play the melody all the way through without a mistake and if you do make a mistake, stop playing and start the melody again from the beginning until you can play that simple thing with no mistake. Always count and always try to make these simple melody drills a musical as you can as you play them, don't ignore that critical component. When practicing, "Always. Make. Music." of the thing. This means counting, playing evenly, applying dynamics, phrasing, etc.
It is a great idea to make yourself a list of these simple songs as you think of them so that you don't have to be concerned with that part when doing the daily drill.
There are online lists of these ditties for the searching, jazz improv sites and the like have them and can get you started. I'm talking about ANY simple melodies that you've known "forever" from childhood but likely haven't attempted to PLAY without mistakes.
The above drill, along with your modal drills, can really open up the improvisational skills.
--And those songs will infuse your pallette with those musical "quotes" while soloing, as well as train your ears and muscle memory to be able to play lines that you hear in your head as soon as you hear them.
Formulas may derive the "right" notes, but by themselves will not translate to a musical sounding improvisation.
If you work with it long enough, you should at some time discover that there is no such thing as a "wrong" note when soloing. There are only musicians who do not know how to resolve a misplaced transitional note. --"Redemption is always only a half-step away."
--Mac
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As the saying goes 'there are no mistakes in Jazz, merely experimentation'. Also, 'if it is worth playing once, it is worth playing again'
At least thats what I was taught when studying lead guitar playing
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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There is a lot more to it than that, Sam, but those are well-worn jazz jokes alright...
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I am sure there is, Mac. Still, it always helps to bear these old jokes in mind (at least it helps me). KISS!
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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A good start is here http://guitarsecrets.com/Being a lead guitar player I learned much from this CD. I got it years ago but they are still here. Very good lessons on Modes and everything else.
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Late-developing enthusiast for jazz / blues. Principally pianist
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I apologize for jumping in. Mac, you could not have stated it better. Every student that achieves the level of where they can begin to "improv" must first run their drills as a computer runs a macro. If you do not mind my adding to your illustrations what I share with my students... music is a language. The more command you have of the language; the better prepared you will be to express yourself with precise articulation.
And I love to use Jazz to prove that melodies are birthed by resolving incorrectly landed notes. That is how we can those funky "b5", "b5b9#11" chords after all.
To the one who posted the question. I try to get my students to memorize the movements as referenced... then forget them. That is to say, don't fall into the rut of running the same string of notes together that comprised the scale each time you play.
Learn everything to build your tool box. Then, the artistry comes from when you know which tool to use and where as you are playing/performing. I heard a quote that Miles told Herbie Hancock where he encouraged Hancock to play every concert as if it were a rehearsal. That is, we normally stretch ourselves during rehearsals and pull back during the performance to what is safe. Miles wanted that musical stretch to be on during the performance. And when you get to the place where this all begins to make sense it is a blast to let loose with some good players and hear what develops.
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Hi Ian,
I am a Jazz guitar teacher, so maybe i can help you a little.
You use the modes for two things.
1.) To play the right notes
2.) To choose from (if the possibility is given) the moods that suite your needs.
ad 1)
If you have a dominant chord with "straight" (non-altered) notes, you usually (there are other possibilities too) play mixolydian over it.
The scale has: 1, 2/9, 3, 4/11, 5, 6/13, b7. That`s why you get only straight tensions like 9, 11 and 13. Because they are in the scale. So you can play G mixo over these chords: G7, G9, G11 (G9sus4), G13, and combinations.
Now you can and should use all of these notes. The important thing is, there are better and worse notes. The better notes are always the chord tones (meaning 1, 3, 5, b7). There are also better (and now I miss the englisch term for this) times to play those notes or the non-so good ones. the better times are: 1,2,3,4. The worse are 1+, 2+, 3+, 4+ (if you count in eights).
Now a simple but effective rule to start with would be:
Play the good notes on the good times. So play the chord tones on the beats and the other scale tones or chromatics on the offbeats. (This is of course not always true, but very common and very good and easy to start with)
You ought to land on a chord tone, that`s when you end your line you should be on 1, 3, 5 or b7 whatever time youre on at that moment (beat or offbeat)
Learn the arpeggios (Chord tones played in order), not to play them up and down, but to know where the chord tones are. So when you`re on the b-string you have to be able to quickly find the nearest chord note (on the b-string or adjacent string, don`t start from low E-string just because you only now the arpeggio from there)
Now G-mixo is the same scale as Cmajor, and D-dorian and E-phrygian and so on. The difference lays in the focus of the notes you play and when you play em. For a C major chord you can also play all the notes of the C major scale (just as for the G7 chord), but you focus on the Cmaj7 chord tones (C,E,G,B = 1,3,5,maj7). See? Now your lines will sound completely differnt than on the G7 chord with the G7 chord tones focused. You wouldn`t want to play a C there on beat 1, since it`s not a chord tone. As a matter of fact it`s the 4th of G, and therefor the "Avoid-Note", because it lays just beneath the 3rd of the G7 chord ("B).
In mixo mode you have to watch out the sus or 11 chord. Here the 3rd is ommited, therefore you shouldnt land on it, but instead use the 4th (which is usually the avoid note in mixo). So you could say there are actually two mixo modes. The one with the 3rd focused and the one with the 4th focused (only when you play sus chord. Like Herbie Hancocks "Mayden Voyage" if I remember right.)
As a good player one should be able to hear the chord changes in your solos even if the band would stop and you keep on playing alone. Because you focus on the chord tones of each chord.
ad 2)
If you compose a modal tune, you can chose how to interpret the chords. A modal tune would be only one or very few different chord qualities. I.E. "Impressions": has only minor chords (Dm7 and Ebm7). The composer (John Coltrane) decided to choose the dorian scale. He could have chosen phrygian, aeolian, or other scales that spell a minor chord too. He decided for that mood probably because dorian is the most use scale for minor chords in jazz. I would say it is the brightest of the minor scales, due to its major 6th.
Hope this makes things a little clearer for you. Ask, if you need more information.
Sandra
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Well, I couldn't have put it simpler myself but Sandra is a pro and knows what she is talking about Should I have written that?  Play what feels right. The more experience you have, the more you will understand what I mean. All the theory in the world will help you but you have to feel it. NOI, Sandra
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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All the feeling in the world won't help you find the right notes in time, Sam.
That takes study and practice.
--Mac
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Excellent lesson here Sandra, thank you. Another reason for reading this forum, you don't see people posting stuff like this elsewhere.
When you mentioned Impressions it reminded me that for years I couldn't quite get the chord voicings for the piano comping. McCoy Tyner is doing something interesting but it seemed to be just beyond my ears. Then a few months ago I ran across it on youtube and I'm trying to get his voicings off the video but still couldn't see it then I read the comments and someone asked that exact question. The cryptic answer was he's playing the "So What" chords. I know those because I've also done that one for years and the chords are written out in a fake book I have. I sat down at my piano and viola, there it is just the chords are inverted. The So What chords moves down a step while McCoy moves them up a step and for some reason I couldn't hear that. I try to keep an open mind and my curiosity alive just for stuff like this.
Bob
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Quote:
All the feeling in the world won't help you find the right notes in time, Sam.
That takes study and practice.
--Mac
I'm sure. Thank God I'm a singer 
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Theory counts for singers, too, Sam  When I go to a session there`s too often those (mostly female) singers come on stage, and they can`t even outline a II-V in their scats. Instead they make funny noises, like killing a pig and call it Avant Garde, hmmm. They then explain "I just found my inner self onstage" or the like. I wish they`ll go find it on some other stage  I agree, though, that feeling, expression and good ears are the most important thing , once you found out how and when to play the right notes. Sandra
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Pay extra attention to Sandra's excellent explanation of where to place the notes of the chord vs the notes in between.
She knows the drill.
I bet she knows that her pianist needs to work that drill a bit more, too.
"Taste"
It is not a gift, taste can indeed be developed and is a learned thing.
Sometimes good taste in music may simply involve sitting out a passage, or NOT playing.
Or playing less.
No matter where on the Ladder of Musical Knowledge you are, the concept of building a solo into something that makes sense and reason is paramount to success. This can be done with very few notes if you strive for it. Or it can involve thousands of notes. Start small and build. State, reiterate. Call, response. Introduction, Statement, Review of Statement, Refine of Statement, Variation of Statement, Climax, Anti-Climax. Work on the handoffs, too.
--Mac
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Thanks, again, (24 hours on!) to everyone, but especially (don't take offence, you other guys!) Sandra and Mac.
Ian G.
Late-developing enthusiast for jazz / blues. Principally pianist
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Very welcome Ian. Sorry, I first didn`t see you`re a pianist. (Guitarists always think everyone else is a guitarist too . well at least at the sessions there`s always millions of them.) But the whole thing is valid for all instruments anyway. Just my short guitar example - hope you can transfer it to piano. Sandra
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Sandra, plsying both guitar and piano makes my thinking a tad different from the thinking of a lot of folks, but I find that good solid theory is good solid theory and works as well on Guitar as it does on Piano or Trumpet or Sax or anything else for that matter.
I remember when it was popular for guitar players to transcribe horn solos and not other guitar players.
I still recommend that aspiring players do that.
--Mac
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Quote:
I remember when it was popular for guitar players to transcribe horn solos and not other guitar players.
funny you say that. I transcribed Lester Young and Charlie Parker Solos long before I started to like Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass and the other guitar fellas. Not because anybody told me to do so, but I liked their sounds better. (Why did I start to play guitar again and not sax, can`t remember  )
funny thing is:
Horn players imitate the human voice, all other instruments try to imitate horns.
For me, as a guitarist, it used to be hard to hear those sax specific notes (glissando, falls and so on, its often so low in volume you can hardly hear it, but when you don`t play it it sounds dry and akward.)
Sandra
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You're phrasing showed me that, Sandra, in those recordings you posted.
Vox Humana is where its at, ALL instruments are merely synthetic attempts at capturing the human voice, just as all rhythm is based on imitating the dance.
--Mac
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Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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