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"Sunset Road" (instrumental) 4 of 7 - Tangled Roots Project This is the fourth track of my Tangled Roots project. I wanted to try a jazz piece without horns. I have always liked waltzes, so here's one  Lead Guitar: 1713: Guitar, Electric, Soloist WesternSwingBrent Sw 165 (Brent Mason) Rhythm Guitar: 933: Guitar, Electric, Rhythm JazzWaltzFreeComp Sw 110 (Oliver Gannon) Violin: 1207: Fiddle, Soloist GypsyJazzBallad Sw 110 (Tim Kliphuis) Electric Piano: 2191: Piano, Electric, Rhythm JazzWaltz Sw 110 (Miles Black) Acoustic Bass: 929: Bass, Acoustic, Jazz Waltz Sw 110 (Neil Swainson) & 452: Bass, Acoustic, Soloist Jazz Sw 140 (Neil Swainson) Drums: JazzBrushesWaltz (Craig Scott) Composition & Arrangement: MW Gilbert https://soundcloud.com/mwgilbert/tangled-roots-ep-04-sunset-roadBackground of the Tangled Roots Project - please see: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=306755#Post306755Previous tracks: 01 - She Looked Back http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=306755#Post30675502 - Remember Me When You http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=307318#Post30731803 - Peter's Lament http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=307602#Post307602Thanks for listening!
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Very moody. Nice work.
Rob
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Hi Michael,
nicely arranged.
I like your project.
Interesting chords.
Guenter
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Thanks to both Rob and Guenter for listening and the kind comments. Yes, it is moody indeed, as was I when I wrote it....
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Interesting.
Without a melody to guide it, there's a sort of "lurching" quality to the piece.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Interesting.
Without a melody to guide it, there's a sort of "lurching" quality to the piece. True. The limitation (quickly discovered) of attempting something almost entirely in BiaB is that there is no RealTrack in melody (or no melody in RealTrack). Most of the time, inputting MIDI notes (after the fact in a DAW) and trying to make it happen with a VST is never 100% successful. Of course, one can write the part, and then either play it in, or get a session player to do so. For that matter, one could do the whole piece with session players and not use BiaB. This project is just - a project. I wanted to see what I could do with my concept JUST using BiaB. It is almost there, but I had to do a lot(!) of post-editing and production. I played this track for Tim Kliphuis (violin) (who I encounter in other musical orbits) and he more or less said the same thing - why not just get the right players? Thanks for listening and commenting!
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Most of the time, inputting MIDI notes (after the fact in a DAW) and trying to make it happen with a VST is never 100% successful.
First I liked the song. A good mixture of sounds and a good mix. Second, I respectfully disagree with your MIDI statement. I add MIDI to RTs quite a bit. If your "never 100% successful" statement is true then either you need better sounding VSTis and/or your MIDI or music techniques need improving, no disrespect intended. Getting good sounding MIDI takes time as you must learn how MIDI works and you must have the tools to make it work such as good sounding VSTis and MIDI controllers. Again I mean no disrespect as I've been there and done that. I will listen to some MIDI stuff that I did a few years ago and man does it suck! I did not have the skills to pull it off. Plus I am still learning about MIDI and music. So much to learn and so little time. As I said I did like this song.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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First I liked the song. A good mixture of sounds and a good mix.
Second, I respectfully disagree with your MIDI statement. I add MIDI to RTs quite a bit. If your "never 100% successful" statement is true then either you need better sounding VSTis and/or your MIDI or music techniques need improving, no disrespect intended. Getting good sounding MIDI takes time as you must learn how MIDI works and you must have the tools to make it work such as good sounding VSTis and MIDI controllers.
Again I mean no disrespect as I've been there and done that. I will listen to some MIDI stuff that I did a few years ago and man does it suck! I did not have the skills to pull it off. Plus I am still learning about MIDI and music. So much to learn and so little time.
As I said I did like this song.
Mario, To clarify: You, certainly from the tracks of yours I have heard and enjoyed, do have the chops to play a MIDI controller and make it work well. I, purely as a player, do not. And my current lifestyle is such that I am not likely to acquire them if or until I have lots of practice time. Lots. So my comments are based on the notation --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept, and NOT for the moment on the controller --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept. For me to write out parts, not just changes, to have them be composed melodic elements that can be combined with the other BiaB elements, will only really work if someone (other than me) plays them interpretively on a controller or the real instrument, either way. So I do get your point. I just don't have the resources to do it justice Thanks for listening, and the discussion. Always worthwhile!
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First I liked the song. A good mixture of sounds and a good mix.
Second, I respectfully disagree with your MIDI statement. I add MIDI to RTs quite a bit. If your "never 100% successful" statement is true then either you need better sounding VSTis and/or your MIDI or music techniques need improving, no disrespect intended. Getting good sounding MIDI takes time as you must learn how MIDI works and you must have the tools to make it work such as good sounding VSTis and MIDI controllers.
Again I mean no disrespect as I've been there and done that. I will listen to some MIDI stuff that I did a few years ago and man does it suck! I did not have the skills to pull it off. Plus I am still learning about MIDI and music. So much to learn and so little time.
As I said I did like this song.
Mario, To clarify: You, certainly from the tracks of yours I have heard and enjoyed, do have the chops to play a MIDI controller and make it work well. I, purely as a player, do not. And my current lifestyle is such that I am not likely to acquire them if or until I have lots of practice time. Lots. So my comments are based on the notation --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept, and NOT for the moment on the controller --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept. For me to write out parts, not just changes, to have them be composed melodic elements that can be combined with the other BiaB elements, will only really work if someone (other than me) plays them interpretively on a controller or the real instrument, either way. So I do get your point. I just don't have the resources to do it justice Thanks for listening, and the discussion. Always worthwhile! Ok, now I understand and I agree with you. If you do take the time to input MIDI via notation, the hardest way to input MIDI IMHO, it will still sound very static and not realistic in any way. I apologize upset you, that was not my intention.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Ok, now I understand and I agree with you.
If you do take the time to input MIDI via notation, the hardest way to input MIDI IMHO, it will still sound very static and not realistic in any way.
I apologize upset you, that was not my intention.
No worries. No upset. As I said, I have enjoyed your playing, and respect your input
Last edited by mwgilbert; 08/24/15 11:23 AM.
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For me, melody is king. You've got the form and surface details, but there's no melodic idea that's holding it together. It's like listening to a guitar solos that consists of bunch of licks that are strung together - there are some pleasant moments, but it the end, it doesn't go anywhere. Getting BiaB to create a cohesive melody with RTs is possible - see this and this for a couple my own attempts. As you've discovered, it required lots of cutting and pasting, stretching and pitch-shifting individual notes, and then looking the other way when the timbre didn't quite match up. In the end, it's an interesting puzzle of trying to match bits up, but isn't necessarily the ideal way to go about creating a composition. On the other hand, there are some fantastic sampled instruments available these days. And with some creative editing, it's possible to take an average MIDI instrument and get some surprisingly good results. But that's just my opinion, and I wouldn't want any of this discourage you from experimenting!
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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For me, melody is king. You've got the form and surface details, but there's no melodic idea that's holding it together. It's like listening to a guitar solos that consists of bunch of licks that are strung together - there are some pleasant moments, but it the end, it doesn't go anywhere. Getting BiaB to create a cohesive melody with RTs is possible - see this and this for a couple my own attempts. As you've discovered, it required lots of cutting and pasting, stretching and pitch-shifting individual notes, and then looking the other way when the timbre didn't quite match up. In the end, it's an interesting puzzle of trying to match bits up, but isn't necessarily the ideal way to go about creating a composition. On the other hand, there are some fantastic sampled instruments available these days. And with some creative editing, it's possible to take an average MIDI instrument and get some surprisingly good results. But that's just my opinion, and I wouldn't want any of this discourage you from experimenting! And a good opinion. I'm not promoting this as anything other than trying to see what can be done in BiaB, never having used it before this project. I might not use this method to create music for release (albums? Remember them? https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/michael-william-gilbert/id16739698) as I do use techniques that resemble or include the ones you describe above. And I do use lots(!) of sampled instruments, often combined with a lot of compulsively over tweaked MIDI edits Putting aside the Melodist and Soloist parts of BiaB for the moment, you can give a RealTracks "player" a lead sheet of changes, and an arrangement in the form of bar controls and sections, etc., and the RealTracks "player" (carefully chosen and maybe massaging the audio data afterwards) can come up with a cohesive interpretation and rendition of what you have written. Like a session player. What you can't do in this model is to write out a melody line or lines and give that to a RealTracks player to "interpret". Like a session player. Look, I've spent many years playing all kinds of tricks to create music, and I do get that there are no meaningful shortcuts; usually when one tries to take them they turn out to be the long way around anyway... In a sense, BiaB is a form of algorithmic performance (as opposed to composition, again leaving out the Melodist and Soloist) and it has certainly been fun listening to different musical personalities be superimposed on my changes. I do agree, though, in many situations it isn't necessarily an ideal way to go about creating a composition. In the end it is an interesting puzzle of trying to match bits up, and puzzles can be fun just in the doing. I don't find your comments the least bit discouraging, and I have enjoyed receiving and thinking about them.
Last edited by mwgilbert; 08/24/15 03:41 PM.
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I agree with David, although interesting piece especially by the way you combined the different instruments there is a lack of some "glue" to hold it together. I have fallen into that trap a few times myself. Having said that, I think that in a few occasions I have been able to come up with a midi melody and even soloist using a decent VST in which I was quite happy with the result (modesty aside). BTW David I never heard before the ones you posted as a sample, I'm very impressed with them. I just can imagine the work you put into it, wow!
Mike B.
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Enjoyed it. We had a great friend who frequently played gypsy jazz
on his fiddle during some of our jams. We've also listened to our
fair share of Stephane Grappelli.
I slice up and paste RT's for fills and turnarounds and short solos.
I don't think I have the ear or patience to attempt it for an instrumental.
Fun listen.
J&B
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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Enjoyed it. We had a great friend who frequently played gypsy jazz
on his fiddle during some of our jams. We've also listened to our
fair share of Stephane Grappelli.
I slice up and paste RT's for fills and turnarounds and short solos.
I don't think I have the ear or patience to attempt it for an instrumental.
Fun listen.
J&B Thanks for listening and the kind comments! I will be posting this soon, but here's a little preview: https://soundcloud.com/mwgilbert/tangled-roots-ep-06-django-in-june(Django in June is an annual gypsy jazz event in Northampton, MA. As a regular, I have met a few of the RT players on this tune.)
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Hello,
good listening to me.
Hello.
Sergio.
Sergio
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Hello,
good listening to me.
Sergio. Thanks for listening and the comment. It started me listening to your tracks.
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I really enjoyed this, great back and forth exchange with instruments, love the sound.
Kenny
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Thanks very much for the listen, Kenny, and the kind comments. I appreciate it!
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Very interesting listen!! Really interesting and well-constructed music. Arrangement is great. The song always stays interesting. You obviously have a good knowledge of music theory. Enjoyed much! Take care. Greg
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
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What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?
XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-9 includes 900 styles!
Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). With over 3,500 styles (and 35 MIDI styles) included in Xtra Styles PAKs 1-20, the possibilities are endless!
Get the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!
Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!
It's not too late to upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® and save! We've extended our special until August 15, 2025!
We've added many major new features to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, including advanced AI tools like the amazing BB Stem Splitter and AI Lyrics Generator, as well as VST3 plugin support, and Equalize Temp. Plus, there’s a new one-stop MIDI Patches Picker with over 1,100 MIDI patches to choose from, all neatly categorized by GM numbers. The MultiPicker Library is enhanced with tabs for the SongPicker, MIDI Patch Picker, Chord Builder, AI Lyrics Generator, and Song Titles Browser, and the tabs are organized into logical groups. The Audiophile Edition is enhanced with FLAC files , which are 60% smaller than AIFF files while maintaining identical audio quality, and now ships on a fast 1TB SSD, and much more!
Check out all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® here:
Purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac during our special to save up to 50% off your upgrade purchase and receive a FREE BONUS PAK of amazing new Add-ons. These include the 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK, Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana, Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes, MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano, Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7, Playable RealTracks Set 4, RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark, and more!
Upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and add 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and 20 RealStyles, FLAC Files for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks, Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster, MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster, Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8, and RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe.
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!
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