PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Fishman Triple Play Guitar Synth

Hello is anyone familiar with or using the fishman midi guitar rig?

How is the setup instruction? How about latency? I'd like to get another midi set up but the guitar guy at Grandma's music in Albuquerque said that they sold two and both people complained of latency problems.I've had two midi rigs in the past and it's possible that how everything is set up can have an effect on latency.

Is anyone using one of these yet? I'd love to hear your impressions.

Ron

Ron,

I don't have a Fishman Triple Play but have a friend that does. I have also read many comments about it in this and other forums. It uses an ASIO driver so latency will be governed by the driver settings and the computer it's used on.

It's pretty easy to mount to a Stratocaster or Telecaster electric guitar flat type of body. My friend had his mounted by a guitar tech because the action needed to be raised to make room for the hex pick up. Many suggest having a tech mount it to curve or arch top bodies.

The two complaints I've heard are (1) not Roland compatible and (2) only good for use with a computer.

Thank you Jim I was afraid of that. So much hype about the sounds and software and nothing about getting access to decent large sample sounds. There seems to be a lump at the low string end of the hex p.u. Would it interfere with hand position or muting strings?

I doesn't seem like it would be much trouble to address this issue in fishman upgrades if it lasts that long. Great tracking and I heard comments about some sort of glitch filtering that sounded promising.

There is one glimmer of hope I just thought of REAL Tracks, that would make it doable if PG hasen't posted a bunch of thugs around the perimeter of the TB hard drive

Ron

Last Tuesday evening I attended a clinic on the Fishman Triple Play given at Sam Ash music in Atlanta by guitarist Jennifer Batten (ex-Michael Jackson, ex-Jeff Beck). (This clinic is being given around the country, so watch for it in your area.) Jennifer is a master of the guitar and her effects, which included a Digitech RP-1000 multieffects floor pedal, the Whammy bender pedal, and the Triple Play. I can't imagine anyone better to have demonstrated this gear. FYI, she was running everything on a MacBook Air, but there are versions for PC and, I believe, Linux.

I went in thinking that the Fishman was simply a hardware unit. Instead, I discovered that it is a complete environment consisting of the pickup, a wireless USB receiver, and a software suite including over 10 Gb of samples and synth patches, mostly from IK Multimedia (more about that later).

The hardware consists of a low-profile transmitter attached via the strap peg OR a magnetic plate, so it could be transferred from guitar to guitar, and a hex pickup which installs near the bridge, as is typical of all such units. It in no way interferes with playing. There is also a USB receiver (which she called a dongle, but isn't) which goes into any available port on your computer. She said it was a little large and could block an adjacent port, so she used a short USB extension cable.

Latency is in the 3 msec range, and thus virtually inaudible to the average player. Jennifer can play as fast as anyone I know of--I'm thinking John McLaughlin and Al DiMeola here--and there was absolutely no glitching or delay. It was simply the best performance from a guitar-driven synth I have ever heard, including hardware-based systems.

The software suite is a double-edged blessing. It would be nice to be able to purchase the pickup without the software, but you can't. The package retails for $400, but I think this is reasonable for what you get. (It was offered for $349 that evening only, so if you want one and can attend the clinic, there's a potential savings for you.) As I said earlier, the suite consists of products largely from IK Multimedia. That's products, plural. Each much be registered separately, which can be an issue, judging from stories I have heard here and elsewhere. It occurred to me to wonder what would happen if your system somehow "lost" the registration before or during a performance, but I didn't ask.

That said, the sounds are amazing. There are both natural and synthetic versions of many, such as horns and strings. Of the natural strings, Jennifer said "you can practically smell the rosin." The interface is logical and comprehensive. You can layer up to four sounds at once. The fretboard can be divided into four segments for different instruments or effects. And you can dig as deep into the synth sounds as you like.

Bottom line: If there was any way I could have afforded it, I would have walked out of there with it—and I already own a Roland 13-pin system. The wireless aspect has the huge advantage of eliminating a cumbersome and fragile cable.

There is a program included which will transcribe your playing for you, and pretty accurately, according to Jennifer. This is an obvious advantage to anyone wanting to provide charts or notation to a publisher or group.

She also demoed the Digitech Trio--and was aware that it was driven by Band-in-a-Box. I was impressed by this also. I had imagined a tinny, stiff-sounding box, but it was nothing of the sort. It learns from your input, is simple to use, and has incredible sound. If I didn't already have BIAB, I would definitely consider one of these.

HTH,

Richard

There are many excellent demos on YouTube. There best I saw was a 27-minute presentation by Guitar Interactive.

I think Richard said it all (but since I am an actual hands-on owner/user I thought I'd put in my 2 cents - took all day becasue my consultation job kept interrupting)

But before we begin:

Yes, I have a Triple Play. The bundled SW is (or was last year): SampleTank 2.5 XT, NI Komplete Elements, PreSonus Progression and Studio One (the "light" or free versions of those PreSonus apps) and the actual Fishman PC interface SW (which is obviously needed for pickup setup & calibration, and interface to VSTi's, PC audio devices, and external MIDI HW). For me the bundled free SW, other than the Fishman interface SW, was redundant.

besides, you are not locked into using just the supplied Sampletank 2.5 XT or Komplete elements, etc. Triple Play can be used with ANY VSTi synth (and actually up to 4 VSTi synths at once!) and can trigger any EXTERNAL MIDI HW synth [as long as you have a MIDI interface and external HW ]

Look at user manual

http://www.fishman.com/software/tripleplay/download/tripleplay_user_guide.pdf


The only "short coming," as mentioned, is the fact it runs ONLY via a computer. Means I can't just plug the USB device (which is just a receiver anyway) into say my XS7 and start playing (it would probably ruin both XS7 and the Fishman USB receiver device ) Because you need the interface SW running to actually do anything. Even the maligned You Rock Guitar (which I also have) requires its own interface SW to use it with a PC (but then again the YRG DOES have a dedicated 5-pin MIDI out connection and CAN be used without a PC)


Now to where numbers and advertisements get tricky - you need to pay attention to what is actually said and what it actually MEANS. PLEASE, REMEMBER I LOVE MY TRIPLE PLAY (I ALSO LOVE MY GK3 to GR50 to PC & HW racks set up)


The 3 MS "latency" is from the time you pick a note until the Fishman SW knows which MIDI note was just played, you can watch it on the Fishman interface SW you can see IT IS VERY FAST and tracks VERY well also (tracking and latency are tightly correlated but not same thing) - I love the Triple Play's ability to track almost flawlessly CLEAN hammer-ons/pull offs.

HOWEVER, that is not whole story of "latency" when it comes to VSTi's as we know.

ONE MORE TIME I LOVE MY FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY. But once the MIDI note is in the Fishman SW it NOW needs to get out to a VSTi synth (or external HW synth) - JUST LIKE ANY OTHER device triggering any other VSTi - so whatever your current latency's are - it is NO BETTER (or worse) with Fishman Triple Play.

Yes it will be your PC, audio HW and ASIO drivers that become the "bottle neck" (real or perceived due to bad set up) and probably where the folks mentioned in OP had issues with the Triple Play. I've done a lot of business with Grandma's (over 28 years and 3 store moves) - next time I'm in there I will talk to the guitar dept, as well as Ryan, about this.



- Look at my PC specs, while no longer bleeding edge, like it was 4 years ago when I built it, it still runs any and all SW and games at very high rates.

- I use an M-Audio FW410 with native ASIO driver set at 44.1K with 256 buffers for audio. I can run faster (44.8K and 64 buffers) but too many issues with some SW (and it is individual SW items not the FW410 or the PC) and in the middle of a project I forget which SW apps are good or bad actors so I just run it all at 44.1k with 256 buffers. Frankly, 44.1k and 256 is just fine for MY day to day work.

Next and this is a LIMFAC (limiting factor) you want to remember: I have a built-in/structural 10 ms (millisec) delay in all external MIDI triggers to internal VSTi/DXi sound generation. That is, using a HW MIDI keyboard like XS7 or Fusion 8HD from the time that the audio of the HW keyboard is recorded on the left channel until an internal VSTi synth, like SampleTank 3 or Kontakt 5, is recorded in right channel (using Audacity to record audio and measure time delta's) is ~10 ms.

I didn't want to rewire things just for this little test but all my external MIDI controllers (GR50, XS7, Fusion 8HD, etc.) go first into a JL Copper MSB Rev 2 MIDI 8x8 patch bay, then into a Digital Music Corp MX-8 8x6 MIDI patch bay (for additional distribution to other synths and HW), from there to a MIDI Man USB 2x2 MIDI I/O box to PC, finally from PC MIDI Man USB PC driver to internal VSTi which produces a sound. That ~10 ms is unnoticeable IN MY day to day use but is fixed.


Summary: the fastest I can trigger an internal VSTi using straight MIDI (no "audio to MIDI" just a straight MIDI trigger) is 10 ms. So with that floor here is what I get using both a Fishman Triple Play (audio to MIDI) and a GK3 guitar into a GR-50 (audio to MIDI set-up. Yes, the GR-50 is long in the tooth but works fine):


1. Fishman Triple Play audio to MIDI SW (using the 64 bit version of the Fishman app "just because," it comes with both 64 and 32 bit). Triple Play Synth 1 slot was set to a fast attack piano in SampleTank 3. (Triple Play can be used with ANY VSTi synth and you can insert up to 4 synths simultaneously, each synth can be set to mono or poly, blah, blah, blah, - you can read manual yourself - see above)

Audio from guitar went direct (i.e., without going through Triple Play) to left side of M-Audio FW410 and audio from ST3 panned to right into FW 410. Again, I used native FW410 ASIO driver and set sample rate at 44.1K and buffers 256. ( I can run down to 64 buffer but makes no real difference for this.)
Again: guitar audio is right side and ST 3 audio is left side - recorded into Audacity.

The delta time from guitar AUDIO start (start of discernible sin wave) to ST 3 audio start (again start of discernible sin wave) was APPROX 28 ms. (as a quick test I set buffers to 64 no real difference).


2. Now same sort of test using a GK to GR to VSTi. Using GK3 guitar (a Roland Ready Strat), and remember MIDI signal went from GR-50 -> JL Cooper MSB Rev 2 -> Digital Music Corp MX-8 - > MIDI Man USB Midi I/O -> PC USB driver -> to Sampletank 3 (same fast attack sampled piano) .

Like Fishman setup - MIDI in from GR50 went to ST3, using FW410 native ASIO drive set at 44.1k and 256 buffer and ST3 audio was panned hard right. Guitar audio ran direct to FW-410 left side - direct from guitar not through GR-50. Again I used Audacity to record - again guitar was on left and ST3 was on right

From start of guitar audio sin wave to start of ST3 audio sin wave was drum roll ……. ~28ms.

For my setup, for all practical purposes, there is NO DIFFERENCE between Triple Play and GK3-GR50 synth combo. Actually the GR50 has about the same 28 ms delay from audio directly recorded out of guitar until the GR 50 generates a sound so ....


Larry

Richard, Larry, thank you for the in depth rundown.I am pleasantly surprised to learn I can use my K2500R [talk about long in the tooth, with FTP. I wonder why they gave it a spectator sport name?

I will need to reread both posts, so far I only saw two, because of all the detail. I was damping down the excitement till I found out about it's hardware synth capabilities.

Like you I've dealt with Grandma's people for a long time [Mickey, Ryan, I really didn't like the tweeker they had running the guitar dept for so long. . Since before.....Hey are you that Larry?....he used to do guitar set up there now runs the electronics repair I think. I'd like to buy you an espresso next time I'm up that way if your up for that sort of thing. What kind of stuff do you play? It sort of sounded like there would be a sound file, [ it's fairly late and I'm getting puchy ] and I didn't finish all the reading but I will. Are you pretty sure about the hardware synth capability? I asked the seller and he said he didn't know.... plausible I guess but I assumed the worst.

Ron

Ron

No, I am not that Larry (but I'm always looking for a free scotch). I've never worked there I just claim them on taxes as a dependent!

I TRY to buy everything (when I was buying lots of stuff anyway) local at Grandma's (although bulk stings, a few other nits, some boutique amps, pedals, etc. I buy wherever over web).

I prefer brick and mortar stores (but NOT Guitar Center) it's a place I can check out equipment (use to be literally check it out, i.e., take it home for a real test drive) and do hands-on stuff. When they were on Juan Tabo, in their first store location (single unit - on south side of strip mall) before moving to the same strip mall but bigger space (before the now free sanding store on my side of town) - Micky and Ryan let me take lots of stuff HOME to try in my set up (I doubt they do that much anymore - too much insurance liability, etc.)

My first experience with this thing called "MIDI" (I was late MIDI bloomer) was a GR-50 that Micky let me take home (and it was the first and only GR-50 in Abq!).

I read manual cover to cover while pushing buttons (something they weren't use to customers doing) and that's where I learned MIDI, from a Roland user manual - I was still active duty then (before my 1st retirement).

Micky & Ryan have been nothing but kind as can be with me - I've made some really GREAT deals there and they have earned my business for a life time.

And if folks her are looking for a nice trust worthy place to buy stuff CALL Grandma's Music and Sound in Albuquerque.


 
NOW back on topic - re:Triple Play

I need to make a PUBLIC CLARIFICATION on Fishman's Triple Play and even Jam Origins MIDI Guitar.

You should know (and it should be obvious from my posted numbers) is not audio optimized. My PC is used for tech modeling, math, stat, analysis,.. (i.e., consultant work), GAMING, and the DAW thing is for home, fun, and well I like playing music. I haven't gigged in WAY over 45 years.

SO again: MY PC IS NOT OPTIMIZED for low latency audio!

Instead of getting ~28 MS with Fishman TP (FTP) or Jam Origins MIDI guitar I should be able to drive it down to under 10 MS even when my PC is NOT fully optimized for real time audio. One of these days I will "semi-optimize" but without jeopardizing all my other SW and PC work needs (I only have space for one PC it has to meet all needs).

A little latency, never bothered me before - for what I do and how I do it. However, what I did post previously probably misled folks and they may think the Fishman Triple Play (FTP) and Jam Origins MIDI Guitar (JOMG) has higher latency then they want when it's my PC config it is NOT FTP or JOMG.

RICHARD's GREAT POST, I think, gave a fair and accurate accounting of how good the FTP can be and IS, when set up and configured properly (and you really know how to use a guitar for MIDI)!

I should have left well enough alone I was only trying to point out the FTP latency (to get pitch to MIDI and get it into the PC SW) PLUS YOUR PCs AUDIO latency will determine OVERALL latency (string pluck to output sound). But I did not say that clearly!


As to Jam Origins all I can say is see this OLD thread and this was about on old beta version

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5366323

This self-induced "exercise" made me go back and look at some old info that is still relevant, so for some who may not understand the basics, or want a refresher try

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep02/articles/pcmusician0902.asp (yes old and dated but numbers are numbers).

Read the HW synth delays and MIDI interfaces (you'll see it adds up even for HW) - and for fun remind yourself about ASIO - there is a lot of variance out there and a lot of "hands" touch the signals [from buffering, to input to processing to output to re-route to yet another process, etc.)

And also read the Part 2 section " Latency Perception" -

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct02/articles/pcmusician1002.asp


Also, if you trust these kinds of reviews see the section marked tools4muisc after link:


http://jamorigin.com/press/ (tools4Music magazine (3/2013), review of MIDI Guitar 0.6 BETA)

Info item: for those who want to check their systems actual latency and not sure how to, and not just the theoretical latency using arithmetic of: 1/44100 X #buffers X 100 = latency in milliseconds,

a FREE and easy way (this is NOT what I did)

http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Latency_Test

I don't know if he is using ONLY the supplied ST 2 XT sounds, or other plugins, but here is a good Fishman Triple Play Youtube….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-EH-0SHVJQ

Someone else using Omnisphere VSTi with FTP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGhqYsoIeBQ

Finally a sweetwater review of the FTP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmcmFrtxBU0

EDITED: RON - I MISSED your question about HW synths:


IF you mean can I use FTP to play an external HW synth? answer is YES! (but obviously thru the PC to the HW synth - not "directly")

Look at manual pg7 and sort of in fig 3 (but it doesn't show ACTUAL CURRENT menus)

http://www.fishman.com/software/tripleplay/download/tripleplay_user_guide.pdf

this is a manual shortfall they DO NOT SHOW that under "Preferences" is where you set/pick your PCs HW MIDI I/O device?) - I have attached a pic to SHOW you that you can

so again you can play external MIDI synth HW (and external HW can play the Fishman SW but why would you? just play the VSTi you want directly, why would you do it through the Fishman interface?)



Larry

Well, I got one on ebay for 294.00 n free shipping. New in the open box never installed so it says. So maybe by friday I'll have it. I have to see where it's shipping from. I forgot to check that or if I did I don't remember lot's going on down this way besides my first love.... don't quote me on that if my wife is around.

I remember the Juan Tabo store I got my first MIJ archtop there, it was and still is a blond Ibanez PM 100. I didn't know it was a P.M. guitar I just knew I have to have that thing. I had my GK2A on it, it's still on there as a matter of fact. I was doubtful about taking it off after so many years because I'm planning on selling it. It should be fine, those are finished in bullit proof plastic.

My other archtops are Eastmans. I really like the wider necks on those. I'm also a wood worker and the classic finish on those things could make me write bad checks! But they are ever so delicate and if you make a sudden move or a loud noise in their direction, the finish will ding.... more or less. I still love the things tho.

Thanks for the links the latency one should be interesting. I understand about the extra travel of the signal. It's not a big issue unless you combine both signals. Even that was not a problem with the axon. I'll probably mount the new setup on my El Rey. It should be the least resonant body and that can make a difference some times. I get the impression that there is something different with the tracking on the FTPs so there's less glitching. If thats true it would be worth getting one just because of that.

I live a day's round trip south of Albq. in a town called White Oaks [pop. 25 or so] I got in the habit of doing most things on line because of tax and other considerations. That all began when gas prices were so high. It would be fun to hook up next time I'm up that way. Scotch and Brandy were always my favorites but I quit drinking some years ago. So I'll have a coffee with a dollop of opium.... well it made the sentence more interesting didn't it?. The there was a time and a place where that would have been true. I did two hitches in Vietnam. Six months of which were soldier band tours. No one ever knew we were GI's so we always got treated like civilians. Did three of those for 60 days each. I really got a good look at most of the country in everything from PT boat to Hueys Otters, and deuce and a 1/2a I prefered the choppers tho.

Are you of an age to have spent some time there?

Ron

Oh Yea, see PM


Back on topic: I hope the FTP is OK and works fine. But while you wait, unlike me, tune and test your PC for the absolute minimum latency you can get - you'll be a lot happier when you play your first few notes


Larry

OMG, she is going to be in my neighborhood in the next week. Thanks for the heads up:

I'd have like to have seen that - too bad NM is usually fly over country for even the FLY OVER country folks!

Larry

Dan, whatever else you come away with, you will be blown away by Jennifer's mastery of the guitar and her gear. She can also be very funny. She is a great presenter.

Richard

Are you suggesting I start saving my money now?

If you want a guitar synth, yes.

And in North Carolina YESTERDAY and the DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY!!!!

Will you report back what your impressions of both of these items?

Larry

I have this in my calendar. If possible I will be there Sept 7.

But I will tell you in advance I have no interest in MidiGuitar,- been there done that years ago. So unless things have changed??

In reality I have too many things going right now musically to distract myself with this direction. So having said all that, lets see what happens when I actually sit through this session?? Damn, I can be a sucker for gizmos and gadgets.