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Hi everybody,
I thought this might be an interesting subject if anyone cares to discuss.
Getting down to talent, I'm just an average individual who doesn't mind admitting I don’t really have a great natural ear for music. I play a little guitar and songwrite but as regards naming intervals I would be wrong 90% of the time.
Now I have met many people in my time at guitar classes etc and to be honest I can't really say that I have met anyone who had a natural gift for music.
I know they say that playing an instrument proficiently is maybe 80% practice and more practice, and I know that I could be a lot better only I am too lazy to put in the practice.
Now I believe creativity can be a different thing to talent, for example I know someone who has a great natural ear, play him any interval and he can tell you what it is. He always had this gift even as a kid, but he has one fault, doesn't like playing with other musicians as he doesn't like the competition. As regards the creativity thing I probably have more of that than he does, songwriting etc.
So what do you think, do you have an innate musical ability or learned the hard way by practice?
Paddy
Paddy McGurk,
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"It is a sobering thought to realize that by the time he was my age, Mozart had been dead for 15 years." - Tom Lehrer
Mr Whack,
I think that there are at least two questions/issues here.
Musical ability is related to aptitude for mathematics, architecture, and--ready?--athletic ability. It makes sense if you think about it. Each area requires the ability to process information in three or four dimensions in realtime.
Proficiency at an instrument is something else. One may be fleet of foot and sure of hand but, as with the route to Carnegie Hall, there is only one way to learn to hit that major league fast ball--practice, practice, practice. So, for my part, I can say that I have a hardwired predilection for composition and harmony, but I have to work like hell to get what I hear out of my guitar and software.
Creativity is still another thing. Most of us have a desire to create, whether it is trouble, offspring, or noise. It is the rare few--and many of us are in that number--who can and will make the effort to assemble something abstract (which all art is; even a "realistic" painting is not the thing itself) out of nothing. This is part of the reason I have come to believe that the act of creation is far more important than whether I like what I have done. Something greater than myself made me do it, therefore there is worth.
Band-In-A-Box makes it possible and these forums bring us together, which is why we don't seem out of the ordinary to ourselves. But we really are.
Mozart, Babe Ruth, Stephen Hawking, and Frank Lloyd Wright are the exceptions which prove the rule.
R.
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I am convinced that musical "talent" or "innate ability" at it is a function of studying, thinking and understanding and is always a function of some level of deep desire. Some folks do it at an early age, some don't, some never do, but all can accomplish the task if they ever make the decision to start working at it and keep at it. It does not take along time, typically less than one year, often less than one month to develop the ability to hear those intervals, or Relative Pitch recognition a we call it.
Practice is a slightly different situation, I use that word to describe the aspects of mastering the manipulation of your instrument, be it mechanical or the human voice, working to get that all important muscle memory, things like that.
--Mac
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To me this is a very complex question. First of all we have what I call the "naturals". These are people like Sarah Chan, John Galway, Rafael Mendez, Andre Previn, etc. who can just make music from their natural abilities. Then we have a great group of pro/experienced musicans who have acquired their abilities via a desire and love of music but with a lot of hard work and dedication together with some natural talent as well. Then there's a wide range from very good amateurs to beginners.
All of these have one thing in common--The desire to make music. So, if you want to make music, draw a picture, make a sculpture or whatever, does that mean you are creative? I would say yes and no. I've made a lot of different things from wood including carving. Even though I followed plans or ideas from others, I changed things a lot sometimes. However, I have done very few designs of my own. I used to be an amateur artists and I did do some original paintings and drawings. Those came about because I had a drive to do them or as my art teacher said, "Draw something that excites you." This "drive" carries over to music and includes composing, arranging, improvising, and even ad libbing. Playing by ear includes both pitch and memory---and for me a lot of experience. I'll never be able to hear something and then say, "Oh that's in Eb minor or D#." To me that is natural ability or talent as opposed to creativity. I'm finally just now starting to learn chords on the piano. I don't even know how far I'll get especially with chord progression (maybe a lack of talent here?).
The last thing to mention is emotion. The very talented can add a lot of feeling to a piece from classical to country to jazz. In some cases that's from talent and/or both talent and emotion. In some cases it may be all emotion because music can really move us sometimes. I've even heard of musicians who were so moved by the music and were sobbing so much that they couldn't even play.
To me, the main thing is the "drive/desire" to make music. Talent has a broad range and so does "creativity". FWIW
Last edited by Shastastan; 08/11/09 11:33 AM.
Cornet Curmudgeon
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>>>...Musical ability is related to aptitude for mathematics...>>>>
Couldn't disagree more. Fifteen years ago a very small group of students did better on a test after listening to music. This exploded into a pop phenom called the "Mozart Effect," which roughly translated as "listening to Mozart makes you smarter." The people who did the original experiment pointed out several flaws in this conclusion:
The test was not a test of general intelligence. It was not a test of talent. It was not a test of math. It tested a very narrow set of skills having to do with spatial sense and preconception.
The test group was very small, and the observed effect lasted only a few minutes. The measured effect was small enough that people who understand statistics argue that the results are not meaningful.
To which I will add: Music is not math. You can give numerical equivalents to various notes and describe a piece of music by counting. This is not even arithmetic, and certainly not advanced math. There is nothing in music that corresponds to, say, long division - much less algebra or calculus.
Last edited by flatfoot; 08/11/09 12:48 PM.
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Quote:
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>>>...Musical ability is related to aptitude for mathematics...>>>>
Perhaps it is an urban legend. The statement, however, is not original to me. I have heard it many times over the years.
I find it interesting that you do not also argue that music has nothing to do with buildings or with running and jumping.
Do you have anything positive to contribute to the discussion?
R.
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I can point to studies that say this is true in much more depth than you considering it.
Music is 'Math-on-the-fly' AND a second language that is read (and acted on) in realtime.
Try reading a second language that contains embedded instructions that you MUST act on before continuing on to the next passage (I hope this is a good enough example)
Music builds the ability to multitask, to reserve parts of the brain for complex activities that may not be 'calculus' but try doing calculus while marching in time, anticipating pitch, fingerings, etc etc
Musical education DOES contribute to mental growth. My parents have spent years in front of Congress making this point to save the school music programs around the country.
It hits kind of on a personal level for me..
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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>>>...Do you have anything positive to contribute to the discussion? ...>>>
Oh sure.
Ryzard and others have pointed out that talent and creativity are complex process that develop in context. Desire and effort are inescapable requirements for success in any creative endeavor. I think we all have seen instances where hard work, persistence and attitude serve as complements to some intangible gift that we may call talent to create work of lasting value.
There is no short cut.
>>>...The statement, however, is not original to me...>>>
I am certain of that, and certain that I meant no personal offense.
Last edited by flatfoot; 08/11/09 01:39 PM.
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RHARV>>>...I can point to studies that will teach you this is true in much more depth than you considering it...>>>
ff: Please do.
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Well to me anyway a simple test of a persons natural ability is maybe if you are playing with a group of musicians maybe playing the one instrument with similar areas of experience and one person gets so far ahead in his ability to learn the song both melody and chords (leaves everyone else standing behind) then I have to acknowledge that person has a more natural gift for music than I will ever have.
Probably applies to most things in life like learning a new language or being good with your hands, like carpentry.
Paddy
Paddy McGurk,
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Quote:
Musical education DOES contribute to mental growth. My parents have spent years in front of Congress making this point to save the school music programs around the country.
Architecture has been defined as "frozen music." Robert Heinlein stated that someone who could not grasp higher mathematics was not fully human. And the not-so-ancient Athenians, while perhaps not being able to quantify their reasons for doing so, felt that music was an essential in the education of a member of civilization. I wonder why?
Enlightened persons today feel the same way, and can bring a great deal of reason to bear on the argument. Good on your folks, rharv, for taking the fight to our leaders.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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There are many factors to consider in this "equation". I have been priveledged to have played with many fine musicians over the last 40 or so years who could execute a piece of music flawlessly after only a few attempts.
I also have worked with musicians who couldn't read a note, but could play rings around the guys with years of musical therory under their belt. Some have the technical ability, and have devoloped the chops and can execute them on a grand scale, but find themselves fumbling in a jam session.
I think we are all unique in our own abilities and level of skill. I studied music for several years in school, learned to sight read on the trumpet, and can still sight read to some degree on the treble clef of the piano. Can't even begin to read a guitar staff, or a bass clef staff, yet Bass guitar is my primary instrument these days, and most say I do quite well with it.
Learning and application come differently to us all, and in many varied forms. Can't tell you what makes up an Augmented 6th, but I can play a mean Bass all around the chord changes that surround it.
We are all different, some call me talented, I don't think I am when I compare myself with some of you in fact I get quite jealous at times of your various talents.
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I just emailed the parents and they sent me some powerpoints full of statistics and a few links.
As I read through the links I see they often are quoting people in the music industry, so rather than get into a battle, I'll just say; do some research - you may be surprised at what statistics and studies really say.
No need to 'convert' anybody, but the evidence is there.
Having music as part of your curriculum does improve your grades and IQ in other areas, math included.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Not good to view it as a "gift".
If someone is playing better than you are, it is because they did *something* to get there.
Even the child prodigy.
"Doing something" may not be readily apparent to the outside observer, though. For example, it may have more to do with a different way of envisoning various musical entities, such as intervals, scales, etc. and the like, also memory associations, muscle memory associations and the little understood ways that the human thinking system manages to deal with these things. For some, it may take place more in the subconcious level, too.
AFAIC, everything can be described in a Math, including music, but we do not necessarily have to be thinking in terms of the Math in order to manipulate these things. Good case in point here would be the well known number of Autistics who can play music very well indeed. Or the people diagnosed as dyslexic who can perceive rather complex things as patterns, including numericals, yet may not be able to deal with the mechanical aspects of the math as most have to learn to do it in order to do it at all.
Arguing over how it is done is nonproductive, however, if the goal is to be a better musician.
Far better to do something -- *anything* -- with that time that will translate to an improvement in whatever it is that you need to do in order to get one step closer per day, per week, etc. to the goal of Strong Performance.
This works by doing something every day and repeating that. The little steps soon add up to giant steps.
--Mac
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Hi Mac. You and I are batting 500. Some people are "gifted" and to them it's a gift. Both of my kids were in a "gifted and mentally talented" program at school (not music). Yes, we should move on and spend our time on more productive things. Still, we can all learn from these discussions though.
Stan
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here's one of many in depth scientific studies - http://www.menc.org/documents/advocacy/harrispoll/universityofkansasstudy.pdfThis was Univ. of Kansas, and similar studies at UofM and UCLA had similar results UCLA was larger by comparison - "UCLA tracked 25,000 students over ten years with U.S. Department of Education data Music-making students outperformed non-musical peers Results same for all socioeconomic groups" MUSIC STUDENTS Score Higher on SATs- Average 57 points higher in verbal Average 41 points higher in math One recent argument regarding this concept is that the kids who take music are the advanced students to begin with (think about that for a second), so the fact that they are music student who score higher doesn't attest to much, but the Kansas study (although it has weak points in some areas) DOES show that the better the music program is, the better the students performed, even those 'already gifted' students.. which is why I used it. (sorry - couldn't help myself once I started reading this stuff again)
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Hi RHARV!
Thanks for posting that. I am thoroughly and irrevocably allied to the belief that music must be a part of any person's education. Without it, no education is complete. The studies you posted support the importance of music as part of a complete curriculum. I have seen some of this work before, and these researchers get my vote any day.
My objection was ONLY to the pseudoscientific baloney that has sprung up around the so-called "Mozart effect." Listening to "Elvira Madigan" for ten minutes makes you smarter? I don't think so, and neither do the people who published the original study.
Hats off to your parents for their activism in this regard. I would like to know more about what they are up to.
-ff
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Personally, I just happen to have a gift for poetry (which I use to write lyrics) and a voice that many consider to be first class (for country / ballads - which is what I write and sing). I am also a serious enthusiast for music, have a deep interest in the theory and am actively involved on this forum. Yes, I can play guitar (and bass) but I would not call myself a guitarist and I would never dream of recording my guitar efforts. However / so, I would not dare to call myself a musician in the context of Mac and many others here.
Was Elvis really a musician? Or just a busker with a great voice and charisma?? What about Bob Dylan???
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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You must have missed this thread - http://www.pgmusic.com/ubbthreads/showfl...part=1&vc=1They were in DC a couple months ago, meeting with a 'congessional committee' from the new administration on music education. They are very active and always supporting any music program. They just called a few minutes ago to tell me they decided to rent a big tent on Friday and have an open jam for anybody that wants to come by. Anything from a piano lesson to a meeting with congress... if it's about promoting music they are for it. OK, enuff yappin' for now. I should be in the mastering room.. work to do.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Whoo Boy - lots of stuff in here.
There are many sociological theories and studies regarding this topic - many of which contain confounding results.
For example, with the studies showing that students of music score higher on standardized tests - what conclusions can actually be drawn. Lot's of supposition on why the correlation exists, but do not equate correlation with causation. What about the background reason(s) for why some students have access to music education? What about the parents and/or community nurturing, etc. etc. etc. Each of these could be the REAL causation based reason for the correlation, not that music in and of itself re-orders the synaptic behavior of the brain for memory and/or skill.
There's another theory that is a key concept of Malcom Gladwell's most recent book "Outliers" called the 10,000 hour rule.
The premise is that one has to spend at least 10,000 hours of active pursuit of any particular skill to truly excel at the skill. It is not a scientific book - but refers to many studies - some scientifically conducted, some just heuristic observation (for example, the Beatles 10,000+ hours in the cellar bars of Germany as a performing band before they really nailed it) to support this premise.
I do believe that the 'handedness' of a particular person can set them up for exercising their brain in different ways. In a world that seems set-up for right-handed folks, the sheer nature of having to 'make do' with right-handed equipment for left handed persons may cause their brains to flow information in a different way than those who do not have to do this. It is almost like having to function effectively in a foreign language environment causes one's brain to think differently than normal. This may help creative behavior. Who knows? Those of you that speak at least one foreign language fluently know what I am talking about. There was likely some point in your past when all of a sudden you realized you were THINKING in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th language.
I studied German for about 4 years in a traditional sense, with very little immersion in the language. I never fully grasped the rhythm of the language in that time. I could handle the rules of grammar - I'm an engineer after all! Then I was sent to Germany for work and had to function in the language. The first 3-4 days were torture and mind-numbing. Then sometime on the 4th or 5th day, something snapped into place and I found myself thinking ahead in the language during conversation. It was an exhilarating moment. I realized I could actually do something that I had for so long only observed others doing.
Most of my fellow Americans never really get this kind of an opportunity - with English being so ubiquitous in the USA, and throughout the world. Those from smaller countries are somewhat 'forced' into the situation of being required to speak English.
I don't think I would have pursued learning Tarzan Swedish(and by way of association Tarzan Norwegian and Tarzan Danish) and recently Spanish, had that one 'aha' moment with German not happened for me back in the day in 1993.
I think the same thing happens with the study of Music and the tipping point of those 'aha' moments when you get that chill up and down your back when all the stars align, the glassy lead from your buddies strat chimes right there with the ride cymbal, and the P-Bass growl is just right - the B3 is spitting underneath, etc. etc. etc. Or when you nail 'Moonlight Sonata' the first time, or when that hair-raising vibe happens in your drum circle.
Once those moments happen, the drive learn more turns on from drudgery to desire. Everyone reading this probably has that fire burning. You can probably point back to someone, sometime in your past, that pushed you over that edge - and you can probably recall when it happened.
I think all learning - when put to some kind of effective, demonstrative use - follows this pattern.
End of sermon.
-Scott
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202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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