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Wish I had a Bassman just sitting around for free!
Believe it or not, there was once a time when that was exactly the case.
Not being considered powerful enough for bass and not having been discovered by the guitar playing crowd in droves, the lowly Bassman amps were languishing in studio backrooms, basements and garages. During the '70s I did indeed pick up several for nothing or next to nothing. Well, the heads anyway. Most kept the speaker cabs. Kind of like all those used pianos with no piano bench, I guess *grin*. What do people *do* with the piano bench?
--Mac
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>>>..MAC...putting that Bassman through another amp, an impossible situation in the real to accomplish from patchcord to speaker to input of the next amp and still include all of the ramifications imparted by what the speaker does in the air... >>>
Here's what I think my job is: My job is to get the cleanest possible signal into the Amp Sim. The Amp Sim will provide the freq curve, overdrive, gain stages, harmonics for distortion, speakers, air and all that...
...am I wrong about that?
BTW - My amp is not a Bassman (I wish) but a Fender Rumble 15.
8 inch speaker, 15 watts and really sounds amazingly great. Loud!
Last edited by flatfoot; 08/19/09 06:20 AM.
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flatfoot, you might be able to match levels and impedance with the little rumble amp - however, my guess like Mac stated is that it's going to impart some kind of frequency domain shift to the signal.
You would probably be better off just buying a little 1 channel pre-amp like something from ART - something that won't put a big thing into the signal that you'll have to EQ out anyways. Speaking of EQ, if you have a hardware EQ around, you could probably make that work for your pre-amp. About the ART, It's always nice to have one of those around. You should be able to pick one up used on e-Bay for 50$ or so. I have a single channel dbx mic/instrument pre-amp that I really like that I use now and then to boost weak signals.
Lastly, do you have a little desktop mixer? You can use one of those to do your pre-amp work for you with your guitar.
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Lastly, do you have a little desktop mixer? You can use one of those to do your pre-amp work for you with your guitar.
Most, if not all, of these desktop mixers that have 1/4" input jacks do NOT have the requisite high impedance 1 megohm or so input. They are usually down around the 10K "line" mark, although some are better than that, if you check the specs and it says the 1/4" input is about 100K ohms or higher, you may have a chance of using it with direct connect from magnetic guitar pickup without changing the real sound of the guitar too much.
The little ART tube mic preamp has a very nice instrument input on it and is transparent, tailor made for driving those plugins from soundcard.
But that little Bass amp should be able to do the job as well, just don't crank up the EQ knobs on it a lot and use your ears and common sense you should do okay.
--Mac
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You can also download the Guitar Rig 3 demo from NI and use that for free, as it is basically fully functioning though can't save presets and 20 min time limit per opeing of the program. It will process as a Vst effect no problem at all.
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Don, have you used GR3 successfully with PG products?
There's a post over on either the RB or PTPA page about someone having difficulty with it working.
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not sure if this is applicable Red Shift allows you to replace the tone of your guitars pickup with a huge list of different alternatives and really provides you the versatility you need without having to spend money on several guitars! http://www.acmebargig.com/redshift/
Lenovo YOGA 900 Window s 10 Home 64bit M4 pro Mac mini 1tb HD 24GB mem casio wk7500 presonus audiobox i2 usb interface
casio wk-7500
biab & realband 2025 everything pk both with Current builds
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>>>...MAC: what I was cautioning about is that he wants to use a guitar amp cap simulator plugin. Be careful about that octave lower rolloff in this particular situation. Don't know if it will be better or worse...>>>
I think I saw what you are talking about: I have a box called a Tascam Vocal Trainer. It has some good effects presets, and some basic mixing capbility. Its meant to accept dynamic mics with 1/4 in plugs.
I tried plugging my guitar into the Tascam. Seemed like all the tasty tone that I had got from the Fender went away.
Is this something that mismatching does?
...and while we are on the subject, what about my Peavey keyboard amp? Is its input more likely to be 10Kohm or 100Kohm? And if so, so what?
Last edited by flatfoot; 08/22/09 01:00 PM.
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>>>...Buy the latest Computer Music (August) and you'll get Guitar Rig LE on the DVD for free...>>>
I would love to have this..I cant find a store anywhere in Sacramento that carries this magazine. I used to buy it at Staples but they don't carry it anymore...
I have DLd the GR demo and will try that...
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Quote:
...and while we are on the subject, what about my Peavey keyboard amp? Is its input more likely to be 10Kohm or 100Kohm? And if so, so what?
Tell me what model and I can likely find out what the input impedance is.
As for the guitar electromagnetic pickup, the reason for a high impedance input, "high" meaning around 250,000 ohms or higher with 1 megohm being the typical desired input, is that anything lower will "load" down the small voltage output of the pickup, resulting in a change in the EQ (sound) of the pickup, for the worse. Ohm's law tells us the why of it. If the pickup can generate, say, 100mV into a 1 million ohm input, then it could not generate the same voltage into only 10,000 ohm load. A fractional percentage would be all that we could generate. Since the AC voltage that the pickup generates translates to amplitude of the soundwave, we would realize a much lower volume into that 10K input, plus there would be problems with reproducing the frequencies accurately.
Typically, a guitar jacked into a 10Kohm input will sound "weak" and with not much midrange punch. It also won't sound much like and electric guitar at that point, because a lot of the sound we know comes from the guitar amplifier and speaker(s) which are highly specialized for the purpose. Well, the plugin simulator can replace the amp, but we still should present it with the full range of the guitar pickup's voltage and frequency response first. If the input impedance is too low, we can't do that.
--Mac
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I would love to have this..I cant find a store anywhere in Sacramento that carries this magazine. I used to buy it at Staples but they don't carry it anymore....
Both Borders and Barnes & Noble carry it out here. Joe Muggs used to. If that still doesn't get it, it might be worth bopping down to the Bay Area for a copy.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Try the Waves (waves.com) site and select the GTR option - Waves Solo is is available as a free download (free use for 1 year). The problem is that it is a VST plugin that does not work in RB or PTPA (so either record your guitar in another sequencer or export your Biab or RB track to another sequencer and record the guitar).
Take note of Mac's advice re the impedance matching (this is in fact very important) - I use an M-AudioFast Track Pro USB unit and it works great for guitars as it has line and instrument input options. Several manufacturers have less expensive USB input devices for guitars - see also the Line 6 site.
Roy
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>>>...Both Borders and Barnes & Noble carry it out here. Joe Muggs used to...>>>
Well I tried these places, of course.
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>>>...Tell me what model and I can likely find out what the input impedance is...>>>
I have two. The 75 watt watt one says input impedance = 33K ohms. The 15-watt says 220K ohms.
>>>...around 250,000 ohms or higher with 1 megohm being the typical desired input, is that anything lower will "load" down the small voltage output... Ohm's law tells us the why of it. If the pickup can generate, say, 100mV into a 1 million ohm input, then it could not generate the same voltage into only 10,000 ohm load...>>>>
Ohm's Law is as far as I got with electronic theory. Barely. I will try V=I/R with these values.
>>>...Typically, a guitar jacked into a 10Kohm input will sound "weak" and with not much midrange punch. It also won't sound much like an electric guitar...>>>
Your description fits what I am getting, but I don't see why. If the problem has to do with a circuit that does not let all the signal through, should it not affect all frequencies equally? My limited understanding tells me that the signal that gets through would be just lower in amplitude. How is it that some frequencies are affected and not all of them?
I have heard that the flow of electrons in a circuit can be compared to the flow of water in a hose. Thats pretty much how I think of this stuff. Where did the metaphor break down?
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Quote:
Red Shift allows you to replace the tone of your guitars pickup with a huge list of different alternatives and really provides you the versatility you need without having to spend money on several guitars!
http://www.acmebargig.com/redshift/
Looks like just what the doctor ordered!
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Quote:
Your description fits what I am getting, but I don't see why. If the problem has to do with a circuit that does not let all the signal through, should it not affect all frequencies equally? My limited understanding tells me that the signal that gets through would be just lower in amplitude. How is it that some frequencies are affected and not all of them?
When first encountering Electrical Theory, we start with DC analysis.
That is a good platform, but when we must deal with Alternating Current, there are a few other parameters that rear their ugly heads and must be dealt with. Capacitance Reactance, Inductive Reactance and also Resistance work together as literal filters at frequencies that are dependant upon the values of the three.
In the case of the electromagnetic guitar pickup, we have all three.
Capacitive Reactance may be the lesser of the three here, but any amount must be plugged into the equation.
Inductive Reactance is there, due to the fact that the pickup itself is a huge coil of wire sitting in a magnetic field.
And, of course, the Resistance, which not only includes the input impedance of the following amplification stage, but also the resistance of the pickup wire, the cable in between, any potentiometers in the circuit, such as the Volume control, plus there is the potentiometer-plus-capacitor used in the Tone Circuit, which is another example of the LRC Inductive/Resistive/Capacitive tone shaping circuit, in this case a "Passive" Shelving EQ.
Those three parameters are related by pi, BTW, which assumes a sinewave.
Change any one parameter and you change the response of the circuit, in this case the amplifier input impedance being the main paramater that has changed -- and changed by many orders of magnitude, no less.
That 220K input amplifier would be a good choice but not the other one, which is too low. 220K would likely load the pickup down "a bit" but not so much as to greatly truncate the frequency response curve.
AC is a different world from DC theory and analog audio is Alternating Current. The AC is not locked to one frequency, but rather changes almost constantly, to become the "music" that we hear. That constant changing of frequencies is also a dynamic that can confuse even the most rapacious of "plug and chuggers" mathematics-wise, but not insurmountable. Plenty of info on the subject on the web if you want to dig deeper. And I encourage that.
--Mac
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Rule of Thumb to memorize:
"At Audio Frequencies, we can always safely jack a Low Impedance signal into a High Impedance input, but we can not get away with doing it the other way around. High Impedance signal presented to a Low Impedance input will load the signal down and change things."
This is why you can plug the nominally Lower Impedance output of say, your MIDI piano, into a Guitar Amp and be safe and secure with the knowledge that it will still sound pretty much as it was intended to sound, but if you were to plug a Guitar with passive electromagnetic high-impedance pickup into the much lower impedance input of many Keyboard amps (or MIXERS), you are going to load it down and change the way it sounds. Also you will likely realize much less amplitude than you should, which is a clue that something is wrong. (If you have to put the input gain "on the pin" all the way up and just barely get enough signal to excite the amplifer, something's WRONG.) Just because you can hear the signal does not mean that you are hearing the *correct* signal.
--Mac
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Guys,
If I read right Flatfoot said he had a Fender Rumble bass amp. That's a rather different animal to a true Fender Bassman. In age (probably), size, power, weight, speakers, country of mnufacture, cost and possibly even tube vs tranny differences. Absoloutely the Bassman was and I guess still is a very desirable gtr amp. I have certain doubts about the current 15 watt Rumble being anything comparable in desirability to a guitarist.
"Just sayin' '... to quote an esteemed member of this forum...
John
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>>>...If I read right Flatfoot said he had a Fender Rumble bass amp. That's a rather different animal to a true Fender Bassman...>>>
RUMBLE is right. I am not claiming that it is at all comparable to the Bassman, even though it does sound very good. My hope is that it will give me a good clean sound to run into my sound card, from there to be run through a guitar processor VST.
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