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"Jazzmammal gets right to the heart of it.
I agree with that assessment.
--Mac "
+1
Josie
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Hmmm. I'm still looking for a way to at least strongly hint at credit. Satisfying that need could be as simple as, again, pointing first to PGMusic but then adding a vague blurb about them using actual musicians for the samples and instructing readers to look into it further if they're interested.
What I think would provide even greater satisfaction is for this site to create a profile section for those musicians, and then we could simply include that link as a reference in liner notes...
Bottom line, I'd like those musicians to be rewarded with possible prospects, or at least increase their opportunities if they like.
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It is all a matter of outlook it seems. Band in a Box is an aid to creation. So is Acid, Fruity Loops, etc. The software does demand credit, the credit was the purchase. The software just sits there with potential until someone with talent harnesses it to create beauty.
I think BIAB is different in that we have a more intimate acquaintance with those who program and play the phrases. We have an emotional connection with other musicians. In normal software the programmers are by and large unknown to us.
My daughter is a webmaster. She likes to use Joomla templates and is quite successful at it. She pays for templates from Rockettheme. They are high quality and cutting edge. Anyone who thinks this is too easy and cheating has never tried to get a website up with these. It takes a great deal of skill to get it going correctly, I know because I have tried to help her. She makes it look easy because of hard learned skill. Rockettheme does not demand credit, they are transparent if you want them to be.
I think I brought up the subject because I was subconciously trying to leach some legitimacy from these great musicians. Upon reflection I have decided that my music must stand on its own, although I may print the logo out of gratitude.
But, as Mac said, "But you should do what you think is the thing to do, of course."
It's all good.
Last edited by gmanbat; 08/26/09 05:19 AM.
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Quote:
...Bottom line, I'd like those musicians to be rewarded with possible prospects, or at least increase their opportunities if they like.
They don't have any problems gettin' gigs. 
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I think that everyone here acknowledges the wonderful musicians that play on the RealTracks, but that acknowledgment should stop here, in these forums.
If you use BIAB or RealBand for fun and your own amusement, sure, go ahead and let people know how it was done; that's not a problem (as I see it, anyway).
BUT, if you're making demos to send to record companies, or publishers, or for public sales, explaining how you did it all yourself with these products will distract from the professional purpose of the recordings. It's analogous to a magician explaining how he does each trick. It cheapens/destroys the illusion.
All this is just my opinion, but you might wanna consider it if you're doing this professionally. You may not be playing the music, but your creativity is shaping the output; you are the producer.
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I agree 100% with what Harvey says (mention computer generated music and a lot of people will consider all your work a total fake, maybe even they might go so far as to think the melody and lyrics of your song is a total fake too)
I think the best way to credit PG is how most of us do it by buying their products and updates.
Paddy
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I don't think it is fair either to avoid the subject but, as Harvey stated, it can lead to misleading opinion. On the one hand, yes, I used the tools from PG Music. On the other hand, I don't want anybody to think for one single moment that I played all the instruments on my tracks - I couldn't! I'm a singer...
I still think my solution is the best. As to the PG musicians getting further gigs as a result, I agree with Mac (apologies for terming them as 'session' musicians). They were paid for recording for our benefit and they certainly won't be short of gigs on their own behalf or PG would never have hired them in the first place.
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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"They don't have any problems gettin' gigs!"
Mentioning the Shearing long-term-gig probably helps a bit...
If it was my company, I'd feature the "contributing musicians" to the Real Tracks/Drums/Soloist parts very prominently. I remember purchasing the Jazz Music Minus One LP's nearly 50 years ago, with that great lineup of studio musicians. Apparently the times were much better for this level of "cat" back in the 50's when jazz was still king to so many of us WWII listening public. Today, live musicians of every stripe, including great studio cats, can use all the respect, admiration and exposure that they can get.
Howie Roberts, Barry Galbraith, Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel, etc., if alive today, would applaud what PG Music has done to infuse its software with such great talent...and they'd probably dig the credit, if they could.
Yamaha...Motif ES-8, Motif Rack, CS6X
Korg...Karma,Triton Classic, PA-80, M-1+
AkaiSampler-S5000, Roland.. X5080 Rack/G-1000 Arranger
Various Guitars/Basses Amps Pedals Rec.Equip.
Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3
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to peter.
i would urge you to mention in the sales blurb on the home page who were the real session
players used .
cos many friends have asked me bout that and feel it would be a good selling point.
its a fact that many potential buyers are impressed by certain names being associated with a product.
i keep on getting asked who the real session musicians are , but have no answer
for folks that ask me.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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You can see the names of the studio players when you select a Real Track.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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OP
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"All this is just my opinion, but you might wanna consider it if you're doing this professionally. You may not be playing the music, but your creativity is shaping the output; you are the producer."
I tend to agree with Harvey in that regard. I'm not pro, and I make no mistake thinking I am, what I do is purely for fun, amusement and the enjoyment of my friends and family.
ON THE OTHER HAND, if I listed a 'credit' on a CD or maybe a YouTube video that says 'Backing tracks were composed by Band In A Box, using Real Tracks provided by the following musicians...' it may lend a little credence to the idea of BIAB, RTs and RB being a 'pro' tool.
I don't know.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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matt.
the issue is lots of people would like the answer before they buy.
you and i know as users (i'm a ptraks user) pg is a good company but
lots of young musicians who have never dealt with pg dont.
thus the more info they have pre sales the better imho.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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Oh, thanks. I see what you mean. Yes, advertising those names is a good idea.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Please don't get me wrong; I've turned dozens of musicians on to BIAB. These are usually guitarist/singer/songwriters that want to produce a high quality demo for submission to Nashville publishers or labels. It's the perfect tool for that purpose and Peter and I discussed this at great length years ago, back when BIAB was at Version 3 - as a DOS program only.
But, unless it's a band you work with on a regular basis, Nashville publishers and labels are primarily interested in the melody, the lyrics, and the singer. Adding musical credits are not appropriate for submitting singer or songwriter demos.
As I said before, if it's for fun, yes, give BIAB credit and turn other people on to the wonderful possibilities of BIAB. But if it's for pro use, you're better off keeping it to yourself from a professional standpoint; it could (and will) backfire on you.
How? Detailing that you used BIAB to create the backing tracks causes attention to be diverted to the backing tracks, rather than the song and/or the singer. If you're submitting a song to Nashville or want them to consider you as a singer, you want them focusing on the words and melody, or just your voice.
A question: Should you credit Autotune on your demo, if you're a bad singer?
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Harvey, I know your last question was rhetorical, but it is not funny how many times you see young singers appear live and they cannot come close to matching their severely edited performance on recordings. Perhaps these singers should have such a warning on their CDs: "electronically assisted vocal performance" ...
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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 Bad singers are a real turn off - sometimes you want to curl up in embarrassment at their hideous out-of-tune performances (that they don't realise are so dreadful they need the shepherd's crook to pull them off stage). I find it all the time, particularly at karaoke gigs
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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I love to show BIAB to customers on my solo gigs. They come up all the time asking where all those instruments are coming from. Young children, too. Sometimes I pause and give them a brief demonstration. As yet, I've never had a complaint about using this type of technology. Most are amazed and impressed that the backup band sounds so real. They can clearly see/hear what I'm playing, along with the vocals. It works for the good of everybody. The management sure likes it, since they don't have to shell-out more for additional musicians.
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I get the feeling many dismiss my sentiments out of hand without really considering them, but oh well. It's the internet.
I do see the wisdom of the majority opinion though, and appreciate all of the contributions.
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I don't see it that way. This was a good discussion with many good points. I'm not even sure what the majority opinion is, because there appear to be two main approaches: professional demos should not list the PG Music session players or Real Tracks or whatever, and everyone else should do what they feel comfortable with.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Check your feelometer, it needs a recalibration, man.
If anyone on this thread was "dismissing you out of hand" I don't think any of us would have spent the time with all these great explanations and reasons.
--Mac
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!
It's not too late to upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® and save! We've extended our special until August 15, 2025!
We've added many major new features to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, including advanced AI tools like the amazing BB Stem Splitter and AI Lyrics Generator, as well as VST3 plugin support, and Equalize Temp. Plus, there’s a new one-stop MIDI Patches Picker with over 1,100 MIDI patches to choose from, all neatly categorized by GM numbers. The MultiPicker Library is enhanced with tabs for the SongPicker, MIDI Patch Picker, Chord Builder, AI Lyrics Generator, and Song Titles Browser, and the tabs are organized into logical groups. The Audiophile Edition is enhanced with FLAC files , which are 60% smaller than AIFF files while maintaining identical audio quality, and now ships on a fast 1TB SSD, and much more!
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New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2025!
We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!
Rock & Pop (Sets 456–461):
This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
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You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
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-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
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New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
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We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
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Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
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