PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Enharmonic keys

Index

Print Thread

Go To

Enharmonic keys #344329 04/11/16 03:38 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 47 R ricobasso OP Enthusiast
OP ricobasso Enthusiast R Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 47	Band-in-a-Box for Windows Version 2012.5 (357) I wrote out a song chart in Am, then needed changed it to Dbm. I did this using the key box between the "style" and "tempo" boxes. The chords changed accordingly (Am went to Dbm) but when I printed out the leadsheet, the key signature was wrong. It showed 4 sharps (as in C#m). I looked around for a fix and found the "transpose" menu item. I tried to transpose all, then selected bars of the song from C#m to Dbm but the leadsheet still always showed 4 sharps. Anyone know how to fix this?

Re: Enharmonic keys ricobasso #344333 04/11/16 04:13 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,607 Sterling, Va raymb1 Veteran
raymb1 Veteran Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,607 Sterling, Va	C# minor is the relative minor to E. Db minor is the relative minor to Fb. BIAB does not recognize Fb, so Db minor/C# minor will always have the key signature of 4 sharps. Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.

Re: Enharmonic keys ricobasso #344334 04/11/16 04:22 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia	I didn't find an answer Later versions have improved features for transposing including just change key sig., or transpose and change key Sig. But that Dbm sure don't look right in the 2016 version. I couldn't find a way to change this, 2013 version help talks about improvements, it states: "Better enharmonic display for transposed instruments, like alto sax. In some key signatures, a Db was showing up on an A7 chord for example, and this is improved so that C# would be shown. (Nothing needs to be done to enable this.)" However, I don't think it will work. There's a similar thread here Others might know. Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in) 2016-04-12_00-05-28.jpg (29.18 KB, 126 downloads) 2016-04-12_00-06-45.jpg (66.11 KB, 126 downloads) 2016-04-12_00-07-45.jpg (34.25 KB, 126 downloads) BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: Enharmonic keys raymb1 #344335 04/11/16 04:23 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia	Originally Posted By: raymb1 C# minor is the relative minor to E. Db minor is the relative minor to Fb. BIAB does not recognize Fb, so Db minor/C# minor will always have the key signature of 4 sharps. Ray, only because the BiaB program doesn't show the flats correctly though? Surely? BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: Enharmonic keys ricobasso #344338 04/11/16 04:29 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 53 NW England Chris_Kn Enthusiast
Chris_Kn Enthusiast Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 53 NW England	Probably because Db minor is only a theoretical minor key. Phrases that are tonally in Db minor will be written in C#. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_key Chris.. Dell Optiplex i3 quad core,8gb mem,500gb nvidia gtx750graphics, Win10 ESI studio monitors Presonus AudioBox iOne interface Presonus Studio One 3 BiaB2014

Re: Enharmonic keys Chris_Kn #344339 04/11/16 04:39 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia	Maybe because BiaB doesn't display the Bbb in the key signature? Certainly it is possible to represent Dbm in a key signature using only flats. Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in) 2016-04-12_00-38-31.jpg (7.64 KB, 114 downloads) BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: Enharmonic keys ricobasso #344340 04/11/16 04:46 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 47 R ricobasso OP Enthusiast
OP ricobasso Enthusiast R Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 47	Thanks VideoTrack for taking the time to duplicate my finding. I guess this is just one of those things that can slip by software testing. I don't suppose anyone went through all the possible key transpositions. Will this get picked up from the forum or should I do a bug report somwhere?

Re: Enharmonic keys ricobasso #344342 04/11/16 05:06 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia	Certainly put it in the wishlist (with all the many other items). In the meantime, get used to reading sharps while playing flats... Good luck! BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: Enharmonic keys ricobasso #344343 04/11/16 05:07 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 53 NW England Chris_Kn Enthusiast
Chris_Kn Enthusiast Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 53 NW England	It isn't a bug, it just isn't right Db minor is C# minor. So the key sig is 4#'s. Just because something might work in theory it doesn't make it right in practice. You just don't write in FbMaj/DbMinor, it's E and C#. Pretty basic music theory really. Check out any circle of fifths diagrams. Chris.. btw Two of Verdi's most well-known operas, La traviata and Rigoletto, unusually, both end very decisively in D♭ minor. For clarity and simplicity, however, D♭ minor is usually notated as its enharmonic equivalent of C♯ minor. Dell Optiplex i3 quad core,8gb mem,500gb nvidia gtx750graphics, Win10 ESI studio monitors Presonus AudioBox iOne interface Presonus Studio One 3 BiaB2014

Re: Enharmonic keys AudioTrack #344351 04/11/16 05:52 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,607 Sterling, Va raymb1 Veteran
raymb1 Veteran Joined: May 2005 Posts: 2,607 Sterling, Va	Yes, BIAB doesn't recognize Fb or Cb. Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.

Re: Enharmonic keys ricobasso #344355 04/11/16 06:20 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,033 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,033 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	Or E# or B#. BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

Re: Enharmonic keys Chris_Kn #344424 04/11/16 01:13 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia	Originally Posted By: Chris_Kn It isn't a bug, it just isn't right Db minor is C# minor... So using that rule that means that Eb minor is D# minor? and Ab minor is G# minor? BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: Enharmonic keys AudioTrack #344500 04/12/16 01:38 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 47 R ricobasso OP Enthusiast
OP ricobasso Enthusiast R Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 47	In my opinion, theoretical keys or not, it is a software bug. If the drop down box allows Dbm as well as C#m then the printed leadsheet should show the correct number of flats or sharps. If Dbm were not in the drop down menu of allowed keys, then fine, 4 sharps it always would and should be.

Re: Enharmonic keys ricobasso #344518 04/12/16 04:10 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia	Originally Posted By: ricobasso In my opinion, theoretical keys or not, it is a software bug. If the drop down box allows Dbm as well as C#m then the printed leadsheet should show the correct number of flats or sharps... Ricobasso I'm 100% on your side. Your description is absolutely perfect. As a good sight reader I still doubt that I would be able to easily interpret to read Flat Chords, and play Sharps and improvise an accompaniment at the same time. Despite the theory that others have mentioned, doing that live would be very confronting. The score should be correct. BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: Enharmonic keys Chris_Kn #344522 04/12/16 04:27 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia	Originally Posted By: Chris_Kn It isn't a bug, it just isn't right Db minor is C# minor. So the key sig is 4#'s. Just because something might work in theory it doesn't make it right in practice. You just don't write in FbMaj/DbMinor, it's E and C#. Pretty basic music theory really. Theory maybe, but just to get this clear in the actual real world. I'm playing a musical score. It's supposed to be in Db minor - but represented in the key signature as all Sharps (because in 'basic music theory' you can do that) I see a D note written on the stave. There is nothing in the key signature to tell me to play a Db (because there is no Db in the key signature, there is only a C# on the stave for the key signature). When I see a C I know to play a C#. When I see a D nothing tells me to play a Db. Why would a musician play a Db because the score shows a # for a C? If the score showed it was in C#minor and used Sharps, all would be well. If it is in Db minor, it HAS to show where the Flats are. When you put it in practice, Flats aren't Sharps. BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: Enharmonic keys AudioTrack #344537 04/12/16 05:41 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 53 NW England Chris_Kn Enthusiast
Chris_Kn Enthusiast Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 53 NW England	VideoTrack, in the circle of fifths in the link I posted can you find the Key of Db minor?? NO didn't think you could. 16 maj keys 16 minor keys. With enharmonic keys included.Not even sure I know what your arguing about. Dbminor as a key sig is theoretical not practical. And if you are trying in your example to say that a score only has one # and that is C# it would be incorrect. Dell Optiplex i3 quad core,8gb mem,500gb nvidia gtx750graphics, Win10 ESI studio monitors Presonus AudioBox iOne interface Presonus Studio One 3 BiaB2014

Re: Enharmonic keys Chris_Kn #344558 04/12/16 07:52 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,210 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,210 Hamlin NY	But there is a Db major scale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-flat_major And a Db minor scale: https://www.basicmusictheory.com/d-flat-minor-key-signature These are not shown on the circle of 5ths as they use the enharmonic C# major and minor because rarely is a key signature that uses either a double sharp or flat used today. FWIW - I use the C# minor scale but I have seen double flats and sharps used in songs: http://music.stackexchange.com/questions/87/purpose-of-double-sharps-and-double-flats http://jtauber.com/blog/2006/11/17/why_a-sharp_is_not_b-flat/ Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer. It's called the Heineken Maneuver. 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: Enharmonic keys ricobasso #344564 04/12/16 08:17 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,033 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,033 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	I'm with Mario, VideoTrack, and ricobasso. If I'm reading this all correctly, a point VideoTrack makes about readability of a note and its key signature is not trivial. It reminds me of the not-infrequent case in which an arranger writes an F# chord, but then notates Gb in the staff. Or indeed any flatted note over a sharped chord. Drives me crazy. There is now another thread about this in the Wishlist, so I don't want to duplicate everything. Nevertheless, to support Db minor or similar, we would need BIAB to support all four enharmonic note spellings (Fb, Cb, E# and B#), and double-sharps and double-flats. Tall order, I suspect. BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

Re: Enharmonic keys Chris_Kn #344631 04/12/16 02:13 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 20,313 Melbourne, Australia	Originally Posted By: Chris_Kn And if you are trying in your example to say that a score only has one # and that is C# it would be incorrect. Yes, thanks, I'm aware of that. I mentioned 'All Sharps', and then I only discussed one sharp simply for brevity. BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Go To

Moderated by Andrew - PG Music, Callie - PG Music, Catherine, Jeff Yankauer, PeterGannon, pgmoderation

Link Copied to Clipboard

ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News

July 01, 2025

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support

Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.

Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins

Join the conversation on our forum.

June 30, 2025

Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac Videos

With the release of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac, we’re rolling out a collection of brand-new videos on our YouTube channel. We’ll also keep this forum post updated so you can easily find all the latest videos in one convenient spot.

From overviews of new features and walkthroughs of the 202 new RealTracks, to highlights of XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAKs 18, the 2025 49-PAK, and in-depth tutorials — you’ll find everything you need to explore what’s new in Band-in-a-Box® 2025.

Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Mac Videos — we’ll be adding more videos as they’re released!

June 28, 2025

Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac is Here!

Band-in-a-Box^® 2025 for Mac is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!

Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until July 31, 2025! Visit our Band-in-a-Box^® packages page for all the purchase options available.

2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box^® for Mac 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.

If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!

May 21, 2025

Band-in-a-Box 2025 Italian Version is Here!

Cari amici
È stata aggerate la versione in Italiano del programma più amato dagli appassionati di musica, il nostro Band-in-a-Box.
Questo è il link alla nuova versione 2025.

Di seguito i link per scaricare il pacchetti di lingua italiana aggiornati per Band-in-a-Box e RealBand, anche per chi avesse già comprato la nuova versione in inglese.

Band-in-a-Box 2025 - Italiano
RealBand 2025 - Italiano

April 15, 2025

Band-in-a-Box 2025 French Version is Here!

Bonjour à tous,

Band-in-a-Box^® 2025 pour Windows est disponible en Français.
Le téléchargement se fait à partir du site PG Music

Pour ceux qui auraient déjà acheté la version 2025 de Band-in-a-Box (et qui donc ont une version anglaise), il est possible de "franciser" cette version avec les patchs suivants:

BIAB 2025 - francisation
RealBand 2025 - francisation

Voilà, enjoy!

April 14, 2025

Band-in-a-Box 2025 German Version is Here!

Band-in-a-Box 2025 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!

Die deutsche Version Band-in-a-Box^® 2025 für Windows ist ab sofort verfügbar!

Alle die bereits die englische Version von Band-in-a-Box und RealBand 2024 installiert haben, finden hier die Installationsdateien für das Sprachenupdate:

https://nn.pgmusic.com/pgfiles/languagesupport/deutsch2025.exe
https://nn.pgmusic.com/pgfiles/languagesupport/deutsch2025RB.exe

March 19, 2025

Update Your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 to Build 1128 for Windows Today!

Already using Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows®? Download Build 1128 now from our Support Page to enjoy the latest enhancements and improvements from our team.

Stay up to date—get the latest update now!

More News