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I have no problem typing in three periods after a chord to achieve a held chord in a non Realtrack style but not so with a Realtrack style. Is this possible or do I need to post in the Wishlist subforum?
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Holds are not supported by Real Tracks at this time. PG Music is aware of this and has stated it is a priority to do something about this. It could not hurt to add your polite voice to the Wishlist, though.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Since RealTracks are actual audio phrases played by musicians, my guess is that they are trying to figure out how to make holds work and keep it sounding "real". My guess is not so much the "held" note itself, but the issue of how you cut it off to match the length you want it held? How do you keep it from cutting off abruptly (for real instruments, it's not a matter of note-on, note-off). What if you want a really long hold? What if that long hold doesn't make sense; sure, some folks can do circular breathing, but that's the exception, not the rule. Do you allow for natural decay? Just because I lift my finger off the piano key, doesn't mean the sound completely stops there. Likewise, just because I keep the key pressed, doesn't mean the sound continues until I lift it. There are other obstacles, but you get the idea.
I'm sure PG has a pretty good idea how to do this, but if they're going to be "real" tracks, they need to sound that way for holds, as well as the rest of the song. I'm looking forward to holds as much as the next guy, but I figure that they have some issues to deal with to keep it "real".
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Yeah, this is a very tricky problem. I do a lot of audio editing with my stuff and I just don't see how it can be done using the RT's we have now. I think they have to actually record all that and that in itself is a huge task just because of all the different chords needed. And, not only that but the voicings too. Imagine, you want the piano to do an arpeggio for the end. Great, what arpeggio? What tempo? How about a sustained chord? Ok, what chord and it has to fit with what was just done in the previous few bars or maybe you want a completely different chord for that last one. That's just for endings, holds can be anywhere in the tune, same problem as endings. And piano is fairly simple, how about a guitar ending? We already have a whole bunch of different guitar tracks and of course they all have different guitar sounds. You want the ending or held chord to be from the same guitar as the rest of the song so you have to record the same chords and voicings for each guitar type being used or it won't sound right. Then, how is a file of only endings and holds integrated into the rest of the RT's so the program can access them or would they append them to the RT files we already have? In that case we have to reacquire and reload everything that applies.
I have no idea how all this could work using audio files.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I agree that the hold aspect is the one thing "holding" back the complete real track issue, especially for those using BIAB in live settings. No clue how they might approach that issue. However, just like we can audition many program-selected intros, might it be possible that a variety of possible endings be recorded for the various styles, then let the user append the one that best fits their needs? Like a selection menu across tempos, etc.. That may not make sense, but I know what I'm trying to say.
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My guess is that they have to do some additional recordings.
Hopefully someone wrote down all the effect settings, microphone positions and so on,
so they can imitate the sound of the existing styles. Or maybe only future styles will
have holds?
The release issue mentioned by jford is tricky too. Release samples that cut off the long
chords/notes could be useful perhaps.
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Thanks for the information. I can see where it would take extra hold recordings to accomplish this more naturally.
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Quote:
Yeah, this is a very tricky problem. I do a lot of audio editing with my stuff and I just don't see how it can be done using the RT's we have now. I think they have to actually record all that and that in itself is a huge task just because of all the different chords needed. And, not only that but the voicings too. Imagine, you want the piano to do an arpeggio for the end. Great, what arpeggio? What tempo? How about a sustained chord? Ok, what chord and it has to fit with what was just done in the previous few bars or maybe you want a completely different chord for that last one. That's just for endings, holds can be anywhere in the tune, same problem as endings. And piano is fairly simple, how about a guitar ending? We already have a whole bunch of different guitar tracks and of course they all have different guitar sounds. You want the ending or held chord to be from the same guitar as the rest of the song so you have to record the same chords and voicings for each guitar type being used or it won't sound right. Then, how is a file of only endings and holds integrated into the rest of the RT's so the program can access them or would they append them to the RT files we already have? In that case we have to reacquire and reload everything that applies.
I have no idea how all this could work using audio files.
Bob
Phew! That almost went right over my head! 
Bob, could you try to put comments in a little bit more 'reader friendly' way? NOI
Maybe holds and shots do need to be recorded. Then again, maybe not. No reason why the proverbial underlying engine should NOT be able to handle this with the recordings that already exist. Frankly, I think this is a programming thing and not a recording thing....
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Quote:
No reason why the proverbial underlying engine should NOT be able to handle this with the recordings that already exist. Frankly, I think this is a programming thing and not a recording thing....
Obviously, you have not done much audio editing Sam. NOI.
Remember, these are audio files, not midi. Ever looked at the minimum and maximum tempos for the Real Tracks? If the RT was recorded at 85 bpm you can slow it to maybe 70 and speed it up to maybe 100, right? And that depends on the instrument, the strumming guitars seem to be more limited as to how far they can be stretched. Think about what that is as a percentage change. Say you have a piano chord and it's a quarter note. You want to hold that chord for the whole bar or 4 notes. What's the percentage change there? To hold it for 2 beats is already a 100% change and we're talking 4 beats. If all you can time stretch an audio file without horrible glitching is at the most 20%, how can this possibly work? What's 20% of a quarter note? A 32nd? So you can stretch it (hold it) a whole extra 32nd note without severe glitching. Whooee, that's useful. There is no way to time stretch a snippet of an audio track several hundred percent at least not yet without a supercomputer and some hot software. Things are getting better and better all the time so never say never but imho we're not there yet with our home pc's.
Now, I have no idea what they're working on back at the ranch concerning this problem, maybe there's a whole different approach I've never heard about or maybe there are coming software improvements regarding audio time stretching. That would be a huge improvement to go from 20% to 300% in one shot. If that's possible, nobody's advertising it right now. You don't know what you don't know but it still seems to me the only way is to record a file of held chords then, like John said maybe all they need to do is to record the longest ones and the program can shorten them up as needed using volume envelopes or something. But, for that to work reread my comments above about what that would entail.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bob
That was heavy. But I think you are wrong. Very wrong. NOI
Time loop... You can keep a recording hanging on ad infinitum if you have a way to seamlessly loop. No, it is not physically possible to hold a note for 10, 20 minutes. OTOH, technologically (computer wise) it is perfectly possible. It is perfectly possible to hold that note technologically until the end of time...
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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I think the simplest solution and the most rewarding for users would be to do a series of special real track recordings creating a lot of differents intros, fills, endings etc. Much like the preprogrammed midi intros and endings on a nice keyboard.
Forinstance have a instrument play a nice intro for a jazz style, create one or two fills per style, then have 1-4 endings to choose from per style. These should be set up to generate just like the real tracks do now, based upon key, tempo, range, etc.
I would think that would be the simplest means of acheiving holds that sound natural, as well as abrupt stops, etc.
These could be marketed as a seperate product or as an add on to real track set for which they were specifically created, but could also often be used with other similar sets.
Any ideas??????????
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Somewhere in the middle here but with what is happening with the new beta of the Melodyne plug in for polyphonic sounds, I think Peter might want to investigate this possible new tool to stretch or change RT's in a more expanded manor. Just a thought Wyndham
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Quote:
Bob
That was heavy. But I think you are wrong. Very wrong. NOI
Time loop... You can keep a recording hanging on ad infinitum if you have a way to seamlessly loop. No, it is not physically possible to hold a note for 10, 20 minutes. OTOH, technologically (computer wise) it is perfectly possible. It is perfectly possible to hold that note technologically until the end of time...
If you can loop it seamlessly once, you can loop it forever. Does not mean it will sound like a real player holding a note, though.
But it is in the loop points where the problem lies. Simply selecting a Zero Crossing point doesn't always do the trick.
I'd much rather see RealTracks containing Held Notes in the raw file, rather than loops. Loops will simply sound like any MIDi sampler, because that's what the sampler does. It loops the sample. That would defeat the entire concept of RealTracks.
--Mac
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Quote:
That was heavy. But I think you are wrong. Very wrong. NOI
Time loop... You can keep a recording hanging on ad infinitum if you have a way to seamlessly loop...
Really? Do you know what you just said? What makes you think there's a way to do that and sound real?? "...IF you have a way..." That's the whole problem.
Using my example above, taking a quarter note piano chord you're going to try looping that 3 times to create a 4 beat hold? What about the natural attack, sustain and decay in that note? When you loop that you're tacking the beginning of that note to the end. The beginning is louder than the end because of the decay and that's only one part of it. The attack of a pianist hitting the keys is probably a bigger problem than the decay. Now you not only have to cut the part after the attack otherwise you will hear the same attack at the beginning of each loop, but match the decay too and remember we're doing this 3 times in my example so each successive loop has to be progressively softer and yet still blend. The playback of something like that usually sounds like crap. Not saying it's impossible but that kind of thing is extremely difficult. Probably easier to do all the recordings.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
I think the simplest solution and the most rewarding for users would be to do a series of special real track recordings creating a lot of differents intros, fills, endings etc. Much like the preprogrammed midi intros and endings on a nice keyboard.
Forinstance have a instrument play a nice intro for a jazz style, create one or two fills per style, then have 1-4 endings to choose from per style. These should be set up to generate just like the real tracks do now, based upon key, tempo, range, etc.
I would think that would be the simplest means of acheiving holds that sound natural, as well as abrupt stops, etc.
These could be marketed as a seperate product or as an add on to real track set for which they were specifically created, but could also often be used with other similar sets.
Any ideas??????????
Considering the problems with trying to get the audio to loop correctly to make it sound like a held note, I think this is probably the best solution. HOWEVER, it would require massive effort and would cause other problems like how to choose those endings and more importantly - how can you be sure that STUMMED ACOUSTIC GUITAR ENDING A will really sound correct with METAL ELECTRIC BASS ENDING A?
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Quote:
I think the simplest solution and the most rewarding for users would be to do a series of special real track recordings creating a lot of differents intros, fills, endings etc. Much like the preprogrammed midi intros and endings on a nice keyboard.
Forinstance have a instrument play a nice intro for a jazz style, create one or two fills per style, then have 1-4 endings to choose from per style. These should be set up to generate just like the real tracks do now, based upon key, tempo, range, etc.
I would think that would be the simplest means of acheiving holds that sound natural, as well as abrupt stops, etc.
These could be marketed as a seperate product or as an add on to real track set for which they were specifically created, but could also often be used with other similar sets.
Any ideas??????????
I agree with Toucher, but being a rookie, I don't know if that is possible. Notes Norton has already done something similar but only with midi. Marketing as a separate product with add-ons to match the existing track sets sounds practical to me in theory. I'm sure it would be quite a bit of work to to develop a lot of intro and ending tracks though. I wonder how much interest there would be for this product from a sales standpoint. I really don't know.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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Yup, this has been discussed before.
I just hope that whatever solution PG comes up with, it doesn't require another 30gb of disk space.
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