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RealBand
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If you've read my other post"small annoyance" I've been having a heck of a time with the scroll stuttering. Every time I think I have it fixed it comes back. I wanted to start a new thread as it's now doing it again however I have found out how to temporarily stop it. It works consistently. If I open a song and first hit save and let the song save it plays perfectly. 1. Why is saving the file fixing the problem? 2. What is happening to the file when the computer is rebooted? Please no suggestions on things to try that don't address these two questions as they've all been done. 
Last edited by silvertones; 09/20/09 02:52 AM.
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RealBand
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If they've ALL been done, you wouldn't have the problem, John...
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RealBand
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What size cache does your laptop hard drive have?
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RealBand
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Mac,
Well things change again. I'm so frustrated with this my troubleshooting skills and methods are down the tubes. This I have been doing for hours. Load a song, save it, hit play and it's perfect. May change tomorrow. After that it's back to the same jitter. So once I load and save what changes to make it play right and then revert back after closing it.. Does saving it load it into Ram?
Only 8meg
BTW I dug out the old reliable PII 400 with 256 Meg Ram. When I first got this back in 1999 i used to be able to record bands with 12 tracks easily. No real time effects though. Today I installed Power Tracks ( same as RB ) loaded a song onto the HD and then into PT. Seven tracks total all originally RT. Hit play. The audio barely played. Would stop if I touched the mouse and the scroll would jump about every 6 bars or so and stop and jump.
There's something funky about the code in these two programs.
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RealBand
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silvertones
heres what i would do to save your sanity.
find a friend with a powerfull desktop ..
for example a powerfull dual core 2 duo or quad core.
load up RB plus the problem project that sticks.
if all is smooth sailing on another system, then its prolly something with your current systems.
i know its frustrating and hard to pin down often.
another thing i would do is post the problem project somewhere like
stashbox.org or another site so other people can load into rb n powertraks
n report back what they find. or if they get same problem.
mebe just post a minutes worth to keep file size down.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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RealBand
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Manning,
Why does it play perfectly if I first save the song before hitting play? It's not just one song it's all 150 of them.
This save first issue is the first thing that has remained consistent.
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RealBand
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silvertones
re why.
yes i know it defies logic mate.
frankly these types of things can be so difficult to pin down.
thats why i suggested posting the song project somewhere so other people can
look in detail at the traks and confirm or not the behaviour on other pc's.
mebe something is mucking with the video behaviour somehow.
another process or task interrupting.
i have a question btw.
i notice in your sig is BIG MONITOR.
do you have a seperate monitor hooked up to your laptop ??
lets hone in on this video behaviour.
you mention stickyness.
does it happen at the same time point each time ??
or its just random ??
heres my own view of possible reasons.
1. as i mentioned before the sound card sending play position ,
and the system not being able to keep up.
2, the project playing back from the internal hard drive ,
and the internal drive performance affecting things.
or win interupting to do something while the project plays back
off the internal drive. ive seen this many times.
but it normally occurs at high trak counts with high bit depths
n sampling rates.
or it might just be something funky n difficult to
hone in on.
could you please do a test useing powertraks.,
cos i'm really curious.
start with a blank project.
then record track after track useing the internal drive.
just record blank traks. or make up some ruff song idea.
tell me if you get the same sticky problem , and if you do..
tell me the track count where the sticky video problem starts occurring.
this might give clues as to your internal drive performance.
have you ever done a performance test on your internal hard drive ??
there are various drive utilities around to check on drive performance/thruput.
ie just keep it simple initially before moving on to other tests.
it might purely be internal hard drive performance.
as i said before , some internal hard drives have a problem keeping up.
so i suspect in the daw software itself, the way the daw is coded,
is to ensure at all costs the audio carries on playing back
sacrificing video performance.
ive seen such stickyness in various daw/pc combos.
but it normally occurs at higher trak counts.
for example an old pc i have here exhibits such,cos it has a crummy hard drive...
but the modern dual core desktop doesnt.
there is only so much developers can do in source code of course.
please run that powertraks test i suggested.
it should only take half an hour.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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RealBand
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Quote:
Does saving it load it into Ram?
Only 8meg
Is that right? Odd...
No, it doesn't load it into RAM but it might just be that when you save it, it can actually find it properly. How much of your Hard Drive capacity are you using?
Can you check this on another computer? I am not suggesting that you should be in the same situation as me (4 laptops) but it does help with the process of elimination if you can check it on another computer....
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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This probably will not help but will only take a minute to check. This COULD also MAYBE account/allow for deltas between different computers which you say you have already tried.
You say you are running multiple soundcards so you will (probably) have different DirectX sound tabs (sound1, sound 2…) when you run DXDIAG (start\run\dxdiag). Check the hardware acceleration setting in these tabs (can't hurt to look at the video and other tabs either). Set them all THE SAME
I had a audio stutter on my desktop (in ONE game BIOSHOCK and in a few PTPA files using DXi etc.) took a while to find.
But setting audio accelerations to full in all tabs is what finally corrected my issue. The individual Direct X files/drivers/dlls (whatever) tested fine in diagnostics modes within DXDIAG but once everything was set the same no more issues. Don't know or care why
I've been following these threads and I really hope you get this corrected soon - good luck!
Larry
Win10Pro,i9,64GB,2TBSSD+20TBHDDs,1080TI,BIAB'24,Scarlett18i8,Montage7,Fusion 8HD,QS8,Integra7,XV5080,QSR,SC-8850,SPLAT,FL21&others,Komp.14,IK suite&others, just a guitar player-AXE FX III &FM9T, FishmanTP, MIDIGuitar2, GK2/3'sw/GI20
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RealBand
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Open,save,play is consistently playing perfect.
Open, play is causing the Video to consistently stutter.
I even took a song in two forms out to the old PII 400 Gateway with 256 Ram.
1. Song as an SEQ file
2. Song as 10 seperate wav files.
The song barely plays as seq in PT. Video jumps 6-10 measures at a time.
Load the 10 wav files into cakewalk and everything is perfect.
Load them in PT their perfect. Save as SEQ file and reopen Stutters.
I've done all the tests, done all the configs.
If you look back I was able to load up 48 RT into RB but once I saved the song as SEQ ......had to get rid of all but a few for it to play without video.
We're talking 8 lousy tracks here with no effects.
Only have dialup here in the Mountains.
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(going from memory)
One thing saving does is clear out caches
After saving the "undo's" are not available (right?), so it does clear out something...
I understand you are saving right away, so there are no 'undo's in the project, just pointing out that saving does clear out some things. Maybe the system is not loading RAM right unless the save process is done, or something weird.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quote:
Open,save,play is consistently playing perfect.
Open, play is causing the Video to consistently stutter.
...........
I've done all the tests, done all the configs.
Have you tried Procmon from Sysinternals? (I gave link in other thread.) You can compare those two operations at an extremely granular level. So granular, that you'd need to manipulate the filter. Suggested starting points: 1) monitor the RB process tree; 2) monitor selected IRP's.
This is only a diagnostic approach that *may* provide a clue. Can be very time consuming, but hey, look at the time already invested.
-Ron
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Missed that link. DL it now.
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RealBand
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I set a filter to only monitor RealBand.exe. I opened the program loaded a song hit play, stopped the song, saved, replayed, stopped, closed the program.
1,900,000 Events!!!
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Manning I redid the track experiment. I set up a microphone to record the noisy stream in front of the house.
Just like with Real Tracks stutering started after 5 tracks.
I conducted the same test with Adobe Audition and got tired at 52 tracks.I got tired not the program.
I rebooted to make sure and Adobe played 52 tracks without a hitch.
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RealBand
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Quote:
I set a filter to only monitor RealBand.exe. I opened the program loaded a song hit play, stopped the song, saved, replayed, stopped, closed the program.
1,900,000 Events!!!
I'm not a systems engineer, and maybe someone who is could provide some guidance, but as I say, it's very granular.
However: I just set the filter to Process Name is RealBand.exe and Event Class is "Process", cleared the trace, started RB, loaded a .seq file, played a few bars, stopped it, closed RB, and in the status bar of ProcMon (lower left) it shows 151 of yes, a *very* large number of events. So I suspect you were reading the *total* events rather than those attributable to just RB. No?
The filter will provide a *lot* of selectivity. Examples: limit to file I/O events, registry events, etc. etc. You can also limit by many variables. Note particularly the "operations," where you can select for any combination of very specific events. (I would have thought the process tree feature will show all processes that flow out of RB as a parent, but haven't figured out yet how to make it do that.) You might actually want to be careful about limiting the process only to RealBand, since the thread it starts could be calling other processes which might be involved in the problem. One thing you could try is, without excluding any process, before firing up RB, letting the trace run for 10 minutes, and excluding any process that appears. "Filtering out the background" sort of thing. (I think you said you have a relatively clean environment, no internet, etc., so there shouldn't be that much. At least, this'll show you how "clean" it is. Mine is dirty as hell.) Then clear it and start RB.
Sorry I can't offer a sure fire approach. As I say, maybe the systems guys can. But you've got two sequences of (software induced) events one of which gives 100% success, one 100% failure. There's gotta be a filter that will highlight distinctions between them. Therein should be the clue.
Good luck, -Ron
EDIT - Well of course there'll be differences between the two sequences of events. By definition. I'm just thinking that somewhere in those differences should be the clue to the video stutter.
Last edited by rkl122; 09/20/09 10:54 AM.
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silvertones
just to confirm your situation.
you recorded in rb 5 AUDIO traks and got stuttering versus
audition 52 AUDIO traks, no video stuttering..correct ??
on the same lappie..correct ??
useing the same internal drive ?? correct ??
with the same sound device ?? correct ??
the audigy ?? correct ??
given the above is correct then lets look at your settings
for audio drivers in rb and audition and other settings in each.
pics of each would help.
1. what do your audio drivers and other settings say
in audition ??
2. same...what are they in rb and powertraks.
all i can surmise is that theres a setting in
rb audio preferences.
so if were me i would focus on whether there are any settings different in
rb viz audition.
this is a fruity problem..lol.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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Manning,
Yes to all of your questions.
No difference in settings that I can tell although RB & Audition output buffer is the same Audition has an additional setting for the amount of buffers. RB doesn't have this. It must be preset.
Audition also has a wave cache that is configurable. There is a check box to use system cache that is unchecked. I assume RB uses system cache. At the moment the Audition cache is at 16384K bytes.
Watching task Manager as I removed tracks from the project the memory usage would drop. When I load tracks in RB the memory usage stays the same.
So Audition is loading the tracks into memory? & RB is streaming from the disc?
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RealBand
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silvertones
how any daw loads traks is.. into small arrays of memory or buckets.
think of it as time slices being mixed before they are needed
useing look ahead techniques in software coding.
in summary whole traks are never loaded into memory...
otherwise in large trak count songs , users pc's would run out of memory.
(well except if one is useing a OS that supports large memory address spaces.
which isnt the norm. thgo this is rapidly changeing with vista and w7.)
this is to simulate a real time process.
ie its an illusion !
there are various buffer and other settings in rb and powertraks, ...
and if were me i would spend sometime with each and experimenting.
in ptw this is what i had to do to make an edirol work fluidly.
it was a setting.
frankly you just cant set settings at default and expect all to be kosher.
you still didnt tell me what audio drivers your useing in audition.
are they asio ?? mme ?? what are they ??
by the way do you have advanced audio/midi sync checked ??
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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RealBand
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I've not read all of the posts on this - there are many. so I apologize if you've already gone over this. I know from what I have read that you are opposed to upgrading your computer to "fix" this because you think this is a problem that should not be relevant to your computer.
however, I would like to offer the suggestion that your video card cannot handle the situation. I saw in one thread that you have an "nvidia" video card, but I don't see which model or how much RAM it has. I would suggest that maybe the video card is not refreshing its memory specifically under the circumstances that you are providing it with RB. That could be a problem with the code in RB, but it apparently doesn't affect many people and would appear to be only specific to your current configuration and maybe a few others. maybe some code that doesn't specifically refresh the RAM on the video card of your particular video driver?
if that's the case - then it's not likely that the programmers here are going to change the code based on something they can't duplicate (according to one post I read about this). so I would suggest that you consider upgrading at least your video card to see if this problem is resolved.
Just my 2cents.
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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
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