I have gone through 3/4's and styles stating they are 12/8 but the guitar parts are still essentially 4/4. Are the ANY guitar parts that are genuine 6/8? (strumming guitars that is)
The important thing to realize (at least if you agree with me) is that 12/8 and 6/8 are just 4/4 in disguise, where each beat of the 4/4 is 3/8
If I asked you to play the following medley of the 3 sheet music versions of color my world.
COLOR MY WORLD MEDLEY (see sheet music above) 1st medley song color my world in 6/8 2nd medley song color my world in 12/8 3rd medley song color my world in 4/4
Would you expect to playing them any differently? The answer is no, they are the exact same, just counted differently and notated differently. But played the same.
Any slow 4/4 tempo style with a triplet feel works well for 6/8 or 12/8.
The stylepicker for version 2016 has a time sig filter and you can choose 12/8 or just type 12/8 or 6/8 into the filter or better still just type /8 and you'd get both 12/8 and 6/8 styles.
The real issue with 6/8 or 12/8 support (especially in slower 6/8 or 12/8) is that chords often change on count 6 (or even a run up on beats 4, 5, and 6) and again on count 1, which BIAB then doesn't support. The only recourse there is to use a 3/4 waltz style, which doesn't necessarily have the feel of a 6/8 or 12/8 song.
A tripletized 4/4 style works great as long as the chords only change on counts 1, 4, 7, and 10.
I'm thinking, for example, "Great Is The Lord" by Michael W. Smith (see below).
John
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Hi John, Good point. Having ability to do input more than one chord per beat would definitely help in BiaB, esp. At slow tempos.
Fwiw, Any slow song with a triplet feel can also be done as a fast waltz. In this case, each beat of the 4/4 6/8 or 12/8 becomes a bar of 3/4 So in the example you provided, that bar with F E D C would be done as two bars of a waltz.
Note I am not saying that BiaB shouldn't have the ability to do more than one chord per beat. There are 4/4 songs that have more than one chord per beat. But doing slow 4/4 triplet songs often works well when done as fast waltzes, and vice versa. For example, if Strauss wrote "I can't help falling in love with You" I'm guessing he would have published it as a fast 3/4 waltz.
Btw, a somewhat related point. Any fast waltz RealTrack eg 3/4 tempo 180) can be used on a slow 4/4 song tempo 60, to give it a triplet feel like a slow 6/8 or 12/8. to do this you select 'triple time' in the RealTracks picker.
Yes, you can do an equivalent 6/8 to 3/4 conversion and depending on the style, it may sound fine (although the drums might end up too busy), but from a notation perspective, changing from 6/8 to 3/4 will also generally increase your page count, since quarter and half notes generally use more horizontal space (for visual perspective to indicate they are longer notes) on the page versus eighth notes (which is generally what you see in 6/8).
John
Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA
I am a bit confused here (but nothing new for me). The feel which we are looking for with each different time signature is more about where the accent is placed in the rhythm (i.e., where the beat is stressed) then about how you can count it.
But keep going since I am definitely not the authority on the topic.
I think what I am reading here is that there are no 'Native' 6/8 time signatures. There are just workarounds that 'resemble' or 'simulate' the 6/8 requirements, albeit many times not too perfectly.
Doubling tempos is generally undesirable, as some instruments just become too busy, as John F pointed out. That's been my experience too.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
I am a bit confused here (but nothing new for me). The feel which we are looking for with each different time signature is more about where the accent is placed in the rhythm (i.e., where the beat is stressed) then about how you can count it. .........
Exactly!
The bumper sticker said "I'm a veterinarian, therefore I can drive like an animal". Suddenly I realized how many proctologists are on the road.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
It would be nice if this discussion could be edited, renamed and pinned as there is a bunch of real useful information here.
For me it's all about the feel and until this discussion I haven't seen much discussion about how manipulating the chord chart can obtain different feels.
I am a bit confused here (but nothing new for me). The feel which we are looking for with each different time signature is more about where the accent is placed in the rhythm (i.e., where the beat is stressed) then about how you can count it.
But keep going since I am definitely not the authority on the topic.
hmmm, yes and no. If you listen to a guitarist strumming in 3/4 and then listen to them strumming 6/8 (or other compounds 12/8 9/8 etc) there is a real difference. Well to me there is haha!
)) I think what I am reading here is that there are no 'Native' 6/8 time signatures. There are just workarounds that 'resemble' or 'simulate' the 6/8 requirements, albeit many times not too perfectly.
There are native 6/8 styles, like Celtic jigs. Those are present in BiaB as 4/4 styles, but play exactly as if they are 6/8. Instead of trying to read about if these styles exists. why not listen to a style like a Celtic jig on this page and tell me if you hear 6/8. http://www.pgmusic.com/realtracks.all.php?os=win#104 And if you don't, tell me what time sig you are hearing.
Adding these 6/8 styles isn't some "simulation" as you've called it. It is intentional because this brings these styles into the world of 4/4 where they belong. 6/8 is just a thing for notation, it is not something that people count 1-2-3-4-5-6 as they play. Think of tapping your foot along to a jig - are you tapping every triplet, of course not, you are tapping every 3rd triplet, which is why they are entered in BiaB as 4/4 styles.
Lots of people in the user showcase add these styles to all kinds of genres like country, folk etc that are also 4/4. And they work because of this.
The 6/8 support that is missing is just the notation. I find the 4/4 representation just fine, since the triplets are notated the same way. In 4/4 you see three 8th notes with a triplet mark. In 6/8 you see three eighth notes with no triplet mark. I think you could read either one easily.
Thanks for the reply, I should have included no 'Native' 6/8 RT time signatures for Guitar.
That's what the O/P's question was about.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm away from my music systems at present and am not able to actually listen.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
The 6/8 support that is missing is just the notation. I find the 4/4 representation just fine, since the triplets are notated the same way. In 4/4 you see three 8th notes with a triplet mark. In 6/8 you see three eighth notes with no triplet mark. I think you could read either one easily.
Actually Peter another thing missing is exporting to DAWs in 6/8 time signature. The only time signatures BiaB/RB export in is 3/4 or 4/4. This makes it a little difficult to work with in a DAW.
3/4 and 4/4 I can work around but other time signatures like 5/4, 7/4 etc are problematic. YMMV
Last edited by MarioD; 11/05/1604:12 AM.
The bumper sticker said "I'm a veterinarian, therefore I can drive like an animal". Suddenly I realized how many proctologists are on the road.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Without wishing to change or hijack the O/P's original thread, I certainly agree that it's problematic that the stave cannot show notation as 6/8. Playing 6/8 while reading in 4/4 is less than ideal. I guess this will never change though. This is a bar of 6/8 from RT 104:
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
I'm posting this link because I'm still learning the most elementry ideas of music and BIAB. This youtube vid showed me how to use a 12/8 time to make a backing track for this song. Because of my lack of knowledge is the guitarist playing 12/8 or 2-3/4 beats to the bar or what is he doing as related to this discussion Thanks Wyndham https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=F0w3xI4A054
I'm posting this link because I'm still learning the most elementry ideas of music and BIAB. This youtube vid showed me how to use a 12/8 time to make a backing track for this song. Because of my lack of knowledge is the guitarist playing 12/8 or 2-3/4 beats to the bar or what is he doing as related to this discussion Thanks Wyndham https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=F0w3xI4A054
Classic compound time tune used as an example of 6/8 time. He even tells us how he counts it and how he notates it "1 bar of C, One bar of Am..." But here is the point to the tread, Tap your foot to 1 2 3 4 and you easily hear the 4/4 beat. Then sing along, 123456 123456 123456 123456 and you hear the 6/8 beat. Now which one is more dominate?
My answer as the guitar player is 123456 since the accent is on the 1 and the 4 therefore I feel 6/8.
Now lets go back to what Peter's first said: "...6/8 is essentially 4/4 (with a triplet feel on each beat). So a 4/4 bar would be the same as a single bar of 12/8 or two bars of 6/8."
So to make a backing in BIAB for this tune you would likely be using a 4/4 style with a triplet feel so you need to put 2 chords into each bar instead of 1.
Not sure that helps... OK Bit of mistake in my figure in the 12/8 line which should be same as the 4/4 but with only two chors --- you get the idea...
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and in notation I totally agree, however in real time playing altering 3/4 rarely works as the feel is totally different. JMO!
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