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Quote:
See what Bob Norton wrote five posts above.
Notes is of course correct when he says GM "sounds" are just a number but in a practical sense, the big companies don't usually put their best sounds in the GM bank. Why? Because it's not just the sound, GM is still limited in how articulations and a bunch of other midi controls are implemented. Garritan, Giga and probably all of them use their own proprietary soundbanks to allow the performer to do stuff like use velocity switching on a keyboard or other controllers to put attack, certain lipping techniques in brass samples, bowing effects in string samples, etc. GM doesn't allow for that kind of detail so to say GM is just a number doesn't tell the whole story. Obviously the big companies could care less about GM because they don't advertise it at all but the big name synths do have decent sounding GM soundbanks probably because they don't want to look bad to the few who actually use it. They want to push why their custom solo instrument soundbank or whatever blows everybody's else's solo instruments out of the water like the breathy jazz sax on my Korg. It's really good but it's not in the GM bank and I'm sure it's because of different midi implementation Korg is using that's not GM standard plus it gives them something to brag about.
The other thing is the limited number of slots for the sounds. There's only 2 acoustic pianos in a GM bank, acoustic and bright. Any decent big name synth has like 20 acoustic pianos and if you want your stuff to really sound good you need access to all of them. A 6 foot jazz grand would fit best for one tune and a Baldwin upright might be best in another. Same thing for all the other instruments.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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That greatly extended point is OK, but not material to what we were talking about.
What we were talking about is that in a given synth, Bank 8 is of no higher quality than bank 1. Makers probably do not deliberately put their worst sounds into the most often exposed bank, because they are probably not fools.
The GM2 standard, by the way, allows for a dozen or so acoustic piano sounds (just for example). Using the upper banks therefore does allow a good deal of variety, and it's worth doing.
Larry
______
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Quote:
Great job Mac!
Now, I have a couple of questions, since I have also thought about getting the SD2 in place of using the Cakewalk TTS-1.
First, is there an editor that I can use to program the SD2 to give me the higher quality upper bank sounds using normal GM patch change commands? In other words, I would like to have the SD2 automatically switch to the higher bank sounds when it gets a PC command from BIAB?
If you use the Patch Map (on the pgmusic support page or the ketron support pages) for the SD-2, then BiaB (or PT/RB) itself becomes the program that easily allows for Upper Bank Selection of instruments, grouped by the instrument type or as the long list. For example, you can look at all the available Electric Pianos in one place, then audition them, then select, all from right inside the programs.
In BiaB you also have the option of assigning your own custom "Combos" to the Combo Trackname on the LH side. Here you can build various combos that you might wish to use over and over again and then only click one place to get them for another songfile.
No need for third party software or digging into the bowels of a hardware synth's commands to do this task.
Quote:
Is it possible to use the Akai EWI USB with the SD2 direct? or do I need a computer to use it?
Thanks again Mac,
Ed
Should be possible, although I don't own an EWI. But the SD-2 has MIDI input jack on it and I use it all the time live with my MIDI keyboards. SD-2 Upper Banks are listed in the manual for the SD-2, there are really only a few changes you need to know how to send, for example, all Upper Bank commands are changed by simply changing one parameter -- The MSB (Most Significant Bit) -- from zero, which is the GM bank, to 1, 2 or 10.
There are also ways listed in the manual to send Patch and Bank changes as CC controllers, I've never used those as I have never needed to do so, preferring one of the above methods, the SD-2 is also fully SYSEX responsive, too.
HTH,
--Mac
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Any chance Mac ...that is if you have the time and want to do it... of giving me a demo of how the c_cowboy (ev 8 140 cowboy-country style : as describe in the style picker) sounds on the SD2?
many thanks
)
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Don't have time to do requests, sorry.
--Mac
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I loaded the demo song for that style, changed the melody instrument only (to flute), and here's what it sounds like with the Ketron SD2: C_COWBOY Demo Using Ketron SD2
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Quote:
Matter of fact, these songs were chosen at pseudo-random from start of the alphabetical style picker list, using a scripting program to automate the issue. What you hear is what you get.
just curious mac what scripting program
Lenovo YOGA 900 Window s 10 Home 64bit M4 pro Mac mini 1tb HD 24GB mem casio wk7500 presonus audiobox i2 usb interface
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Quote:
I loaded the demo song for that style, changed the melody instrument only (to flute), and here's what it sounds like with the Ketron SD2:
C_COWBOY Demo Using Ketron SD2
Beats the software synths in spades!
Re F
Last edited by FrankK; 03/20/10 11:56 AM.
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Quote:
Quote:
Keep in mind, Mac said he only used the GM soundbank. This is the main problem with GM. It's convienient, but you pay for that in mediocre sound especially the drums. GM is restrictive. The GM standard only allows for certain things or the sound is not GM certified or whatever they call it. <...>
There is no such thing as a GM sound. There are only patch number assignments to GM sounds.
The GM patch number for an Acoustic Grand Piano is #1. But GM does not specify what the acoustic grand piano is supposed to sound like, only that patch (or program) #1 is used to designate Acoustic Grand Piano. So the Acoustic Grand Piano on my laptop's sound card sounds pretty thin while the Acoustic Grand Piano on the GM bank of my Korg i3 sounds quite nice. I would imagine the Acoustic Grand Piano on the Kurzweil sounds even better.
But the Rhodes piano (#5) sounds best on my SD90.
The Acoustic Bass on my sound card is lame, the Acoustic bass on my Roland SC55 sounds better than the Acoustic bass on my SD90, but the Acoustic Bass on my i3 sounds so good you can hear the wood vibrate. All are patch #33.
But the guitars on my SD90 are excellent, and there are some sounds on my old SC-55 that still sound great.
And that is all GM does, assign standard patch numbers to a number of commonly used sounds. It does not specify what those sounds are supposed to sound like, or even what kind of synthesis is to be used for those sounds.
I hear people discussing the lame GM sounds often, but there is no such thing as a GM sound, only a GM patch number for a sound. I suppose GM gets its reputation from the typical synthesizer on the sound card in a computer which is not nearly as well done as a more expensive professional level synthesizer.
But of course as you pointed out, they are limited to 128 patch numbers. So more than the 128 GM instruments are always a plus.
Insights and incites by Notes
I'm glad you straightened people out about this -it's a common misconception that people keep passing on. Of course GM2 etc. gives you lots more.
As far as the SD2 is concerned it has the absolute best Breathy Tenor Saxophone, Superb Flute, Very good Clarinet (esp higher register) and pretty good Golden Trumpet, and excellent violins for those of us who play Wind Controllers. Some other hardware synths (and expansion cards) may have one or two really good solo sounds for Wind C. players, but none that I have ever tried has as many great sounds as the SD2 -and certainly not for the bargain price of the SD2.
However, if any Wind Controller fans would like incredible Trumpet (s) you need to get the software synth mad by samplemodeling. Not only does it sound more like a real trumpet, it is also incredibly responsive, pretty much like an acoustic intrument. Just amazing.
Great job Bob! and Thanks,
Last edited by Dan Tong; 03/20/10 12:10 AM.
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Quote:
just curious mac what scripting program
I used a "propietary" bit of code developed by the guys on one of my "day jobs" for nefarious purposes <g> -- ugly, never really finished all the way, but it works.
Not really up to snuff in many ways, but works for me for a lot of things - sometimes.
--Mac
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Quote:
I loaded the demo song for that style, changed the melody instrument only (to flute), and here's what it sounds like with the Ketron SD2:
C_COWBOY Demo Using Ketron SD2
Thank you ever so much John for taking the time to upload this example of the SD2. I really appreciate it. It certainly beats the dxi hands down. Will start saving towards buying the Ketron.
Thank you Mac for starting this thread.
Musiclover
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It sounds like the original SD2 links are now playing the vsc-3 or something similarly unimpressive. The recent link for C_COWBOY demo sounds much more like what I heard at the Ketron web site. Just in case anyone is as confused as I was.
Windows 11, Intel Core I5 10400, 16 gig ram, Scarlett 2i2, Sony Acid Music Studio 10, BIAB 2020 UltraPlus Pak
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The original SD2 links that I posted long ago are still playing what I posted and what I said that they are -- BiaB demo songs recorded to .wav and converted to compressed streaming audio files using the Ketron SD-2's GM bank.
--Mac
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Well you hear what you hear, and if the soundcard and what's after it isn't up to snuff it will sound bad.
For example trying to listen on a netbook's speakers, wow, nothing sounds good ...
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Journeyman
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yeah, the SD2 is really the best GM module as far as I know. Especially for BB, t's perfect. It's not cheap but how much time does it saves as far as messing around with Kontakt, Bandstand, Soundfonts,this and that, and all the dozens of really average sounding soft GM modules, etc etc.
I think I should really get an SD2 too
even with the Realtracks being astonishing, they still don't quite work as MIDI does..... but I still see Realtracks and really good GM sounds as being both essential
GM is not going to die anytime soon yet. For studying, learning etc it's still the best option in many cases, even so it makes sense to have the best MIDI sounds possible, without unnecessary fuss and wasted time.
Last edited by avatars_the_titletrack; 04/07/10 07:53 AM.
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Journeyman
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great tip, the one about muting the melody track on the demos. I'll try that too. 
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Hmm, I listened to everything again, but I still come to the same conclusion. I use a line6 audio interface as an external sound card and my cans are Grado 60s. I listened to all the linked tunes, and I can hear little to no difference between the same thing played on my copy of BIAB Megapak 2010 (running the Roland VSC-3). Now the SD2 demo files on ketronus.com are truly droolworthy. Listening again to the more recent country tune link, I can hear a significant improvement, but it is also far short of the ketron site's sd2 audio files. I'm wondering how much was involved in making those files sound so good.
Thanks for confirming the files, I appreciate it.
Bob
Windows 11, Intel Core I5 10400, 16 gig ram, Scarlett 2i2, Sony Acid Music Studio 10, BIAB 2020 UltraPlus Pak
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Quote:
I'm wondering how much was involved in making those files sound so good.
Well, I don't know about how they did the demos at Ketron's site; however, be aware that what both Mac and I posted are MP3 versions of the files. All I did was click the render button and let it record through. Although I didn't apply any effects, I did normalize the WAV form before converting to MP3. I don't know if Mac normalized his files, but that can result in a different sound. Mac's were encoded at 128; my file was at 192. That can make a difference in sound quality right there. The WAV file sounds even better. I had originally encoded the COWBOY demo at 128, but didn't like the sound, so I upped it to 192. The styles used can also make a difference as well.
The Ketron is an awesome instrument, as far as I'm concerned. Not perfect, but then again, it's MIDI. I wish I had another one for my 2nd computer.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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