PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Win 10 forced updates - any plan on going to Linux?

(italics mine)

You lost me right there.
If your company server runs on Win10 you may be doing it wrong.

For the record... if a company runs on Microsoft servers, they most likely are using Windows 2016 Server, which is the platform Win 10 Pro run at its best as client. Windows 10 is NOT a platform that even can work as a server anyway; the sole mention of someting similar shows the level of misinformation or simple ignorance about the subject some people show, even when they're self-proclaiming being some kind of "expert".

Most server farms run on Linux/UNIX platforms. Always have, always will.

Yep, Windows 10 is strictly a desktop client, not a server OS. Here at Pensacola Naval Air Station we have upgraded all our workstations to Windows 10 Enterprise (and for the most part everything works fine). The back end is a mix of Windows Server 2008 (and some Windows Server 2016), as well as some Redhat Linux and Solaris Unix). Only the desktops run Windows 10 (Enterprise Edition, so we only get updates after they have been vetted through the information assurance processes). We previously ran Windows 7 (Enterprise).

I was a programmer/systems-analyst for 19 years (make that 37 since I am 63 and need to include my work since I became self employed). Here is how I see it.

When I had the 20 years experience guy who serviced my computer come in to do some work he mentioned the downloads of the MS updates were taking too long. He complained that he did not know what was going on at Microsoft and it was effecting his business of travelling out to the clients to do that work (he could not apply the updates while onsite). My assumption was their network was overloaded (too many people downloading at once). If this is the cause of this problem or even if the problem is specific to the computer the method I prefer to use would resolve the problem and MS would not get blamed even if they did have inadequate download capacity to handle the overload in demand. After all they can not be expected to project such a demand since they can't read minds. Here is how I believe all this should be handled and MS could (if they put their mind to it) provide assistance for the green computer users.

1/ Allow the user to download the update and store it for later install. They may have several of these updates collected over time if they are busy. The MS program could help the user manage them for future application. In my case my methods have protected me for 30 years so there is no panic rush to get these updates applied today. If I get a malware that could have been avoided with one of these updates I won't be blaming MS or myself. It happens. I just do what I have to do and move on.

2/ When the user is ready to apply the updates at a time that is best for them they either restore the latest clean image of the machine they took immediately after they got the machine home or they format the drive and install the operating system from a fresh DVD.
2B/ Now take an image if applicable named (MachineRefresh_A_#1_OperatingSystemLoaded)

3/ Now the user applies all the updates which have been collected (when the machine is 100% guaranteed to be clean rather than applying these updates to a machine that is full of internet junk and uninstall junk).
3B/ Now take an image named (MachineRefresh_A_#2_AllMicrosoftUpdatesApplied).

4/ Only after all the MS updates have been applied would I then start to apply my software updates. The ones that could be applied off-line would be applied first.
4B/ Now take an image named (MachineRefresh_A_#3_Off-linePersonalSoftwareApplied)

5/ Now the remaining software the user uses should be applied (the software that needs an online connection to be installed).
5B/ Now take an image named (MachineRefresh_A_#4_On-linePersonalSoftwareApplied).

6/ From this time on a record of any additional installs of personal software should be kept so that the next time the user decides to go through the above procedure they can apply this software at step number 4 or 5 above. If the machine was ever refreshed again they image names would be "MachineRefresh_B_whatever". It would be a good idea to also keep a record of any software parameter changes but this may just be too much work to make it practical (one does what they can using their own judgement).

7/ The data should be well backed up at this time. I won't get into that to avoid making this too long.

The advantage of this approach is it is a catch all for any software problem (not a hardware problem). What I mean is if the machine starts acting up to the point where it becomes too much of a problem and you can't figure out what it is, you do not need to spend money having people look at it. You go through the machine refresh procedure and you are all set. I refreshed in the XP days many times applying service packs #1, #2 and#3 then applying all my software after that. It works like a charm. If you do several machine refresh procedures it avoids multiple downloads if you store the updates off the machine as data backup. Another advantage is you get 4 images (some might want to skip #1 and #3).

It could be taken to the level where it actually tracks this whole process and helps the user keep track of all software that was installed since the very last image I mentioned above (what I am referring to in step #6). A simple list of software could be provided for the user. It all seems pretty simple to me and once it is finally documented and laid out as above it really is very simple. I mentioned this before but it was not as well laid out with the proper image names selected to make it clearer.


No. Let me explain.

A/
If it was occurring due to something wrong with the machine that will be occurring after the download when the actual install is being run. The above method fixes that because the machine is always returned to a clean state before these update installs are started. Extremely easy to understand once it is pointed out. This is why I say MS is going backwards. They are now forcing an install while the machine is dirty with who knows what where as before they were doing it correctly (allowing the user to clean it up first). It comes back to what my service person with 20 years experience was saying "What is going on with Microsoft?".

B/
If this occurred due to too many downloading at one time they would increase their download capacity and the above method reduces the download demand during multiple machine refreshes. I suppose one could say the methods I use to protect myself reduce the download demand completely (Microsoft would love that wouldn't they since I am not competing with you). I still use antivirus software (just not Microsoft). I was reading just yesterday that any good antivirus software can protect against any malware. I always keep Avast up-to-date. I guess I forgot to mention that. Avast takes a lot less time to download and install and maybe it is part of the reason I have not been having any problems when I shut off MS-updates. There is a lot of marketing and competition going on here too.

Unfortunately MS does not have the software to guide the user to do all this and I am betting they are getting too many service calls with users blaming them for problems actually created by malware so they are forcing malware fixes down to reduce their support costs. Its a guess.

Sr, again, you're talking without knowing the subject at hand.

When you belong in an IT team with the task of deplying OS services, and security patches are one of these, you subscribe to MS and have the possibility of dowloading the patches and save'em in any support you see fit, as normally the deployment is done on an isolated mirror image of the network first, so they can try the effectiviness of it and/or if it causes any unforeseen trouble, THEN it gets deployed to the live part of the network. All steps documented and approved by different employees/consultants with different levels of responsability and area-specific knowledge.

So, working as you'd like, it actually is possible; just the people you know and yourself have no actual knowledge of how things really work, and neither you nor the people you work with/know, don't belong to the crew in charge of Deployment Services.

That sounds great Pepe but that is in a company setting with people trained at a pretty high level for tech support departments or possibly hired outside support. We take our knowledge for granted. You can't expect others to have this knowledge. It is unrealistic.

Having said that, maybe I am being a little too optimistic about newbies to computers (because I am fully aware that people like Pepe and myself take our knowledge for granted) but I believe single users could learn to manage their computer much more quickly if Microsoft embraced teaching them early how to do it with software designed to support that learning. I am not an expert on how to teach computer maintenance to beginners. However here are some random ideas. Have it on a sheet when they buy the computer. Tie it in with the popup that wants them to install the latest update (allow them to reprint the sheet maybe). Maybe have a window with the steps and links to more detailed help. I would have loved to have this kind of assistance when I bought Win7 pro. You will need to get them excited about this dry stuff. Give them the option to clean their machine first (with instructions and software to help) or update it without cleaning it. I just think that over the long term Microsoft would be farther ahead with this approach rather than unexpectedly updating computer full of junk (malware, incomplete uninstalls, driver problems, whatever).

John

P.S. I think it is time to close this thread down (or at least I am going to sign off since I have some market trading goals for this week I really want to focus on). So to bring it back to the original topic I don't think there is a big enough market for putting BIAB on Linux and I assume the people at PG Music know this. I highly doubt that BIAB will ever run on Linux. Three things prompted me to ask regardless (I enjoyed Linux when I knew it well, my former guitar student who uses only Linux can not use BIAB and yes (Pepe is correct) Windows10 was ticking me off by starting to force an update unexpectedly before I had a chance to clean up the machine and I was not in a position with my busy schedule to return the image I first took so it could work on a clean machine instead). It has been a very interesting thread. I learned a number of things and I am sure others did too. Have a great summer.

https://mva.microsoft.com/

That's where it's at. You choose a path, learn and test until you get certified. That's the MS way.

Get back to your bottom-feeder main activity: trading.

Perhaps the only thing that irritates me about Win10 updates is not allowing me one stall.

Say I'm in a hurry to leave to get to a gig, or I want to make an image first.

I know I could upgrade but I think I'll wait until I replace the computer to get the super-duper pro version.

When I bought this computer it had 8.1 on it. I'm glad they upgraded it to Win10 thought.

Notes

Hi Bob;

1) Agreed, just had Windows update services on 'manual'. Immediately there was some update screwing up my tuned windows 10. Had to reload an earlier image. So again i set it to 'disabled'. As said, 360 Total Security's 'Patch Up' tells me when a security update is necessary, and i will install that manually.

2) went the same route, but 8.1 still runs on my laptop, and proved super stable for over 2 years, and was upgraded from 8.0 before that .... F

I really didn't mind 8.1. I downloaded an app that gave me something similar to the classic start menus and it also made Win8.1 boot up in the desktop mode with the start menu available.

But when Windows decided to let me upgrade to 10, I waited until the offer was getting close to the expiration date (hopefully for MS to get the bugs out) and did it.

I figured it would only be a matter of time before MS quit supporting 8.1 and I'd have to upgrade then for security reasons. By then it might cost money and be more of a problem to upgrade.

Other than the usually small 'security' patches, it's gone through a couple of major upgrades. MS quietly downloaded the upgrade data while the computer was on, then when turning off the computer, I installed the upgrade. Fortunately I had time so instead of shutting the computer off immediately, I made a disk image.

But to tell the truth, I haven't had a problem with any of the MS upgrades or updates. I know they can't foresee how every customer's computer is configured, but they seem to be getting better at this.

I usually get the Pro version when I buy a computer, but for some reason 8.1 either wasn't or MS decided to upgrade it to home. I'm not sure.

Anyway, I'll be extra sure to get the Pro edition when I need a new computer. That way I can decide when to install the upgrade.

Notes

Ok, so I don't understand servers. All our workstations are Win 7 so they're talking about upgrading all those to 10 not the server. But there are a bunch of issues with that they're working through right now. ALL my other comments about security and home users should be on Win 10 stand.

From Kent



Exactly my point and I've been posting this for years now.

Bob

This is really even further off-topic, but...

I'd had a machine failure on may main desktop machine, mostly running Linux, but booting to Win7 for thoise few applications where I have no choice.

I bought a new lump and installed into it the still working HDD from the old machine.

Everything seemed to run fine, except Win7 kept complaining that my computer was "designed for a newer version of Windows" and advising me to upgrade to Win10, which I did not want to do, partly because I don't like Win10 and partly because this was supposed also to be an occasional-use platform for verifying software on Win7.

I deleted a partition I thought was obsolete ... wrong it was that Win7. So I tried to reinstall.

After two weeks of occasional and frustrating failures and obscure Windows-installer messages I eventually discover that Win7 _will_not_ install on Intel series-7 CPUs. Sheesh!

So now I have Win10 as a boot option for some software and Win7 on a VM VirtualBox for some other software.

I thought I'd rake out my old and "don't like this" BIAB and give it a try on that VirtualBox Win7, mostly because friends sometimes send me BIAB files

I've spent an hour or so installing BIAB minus the plethora of add-ins, gone to install RealBand, only to find that the CD is corrupt.

When I run BIAB, I get an Error/warning that says it's unable to write the registry.

I don't think this is just me. I'm bored now and giving up again.

Ho Hum.

Hello Gordon,

The thread you replied to is years old. If you are serious about finding a solution, you should post a new topic, and include more information like the version of Band-in-a-Box. A message about not being able to write to the registry is most likely just Band-in-a-Box informing you that it can't set the file associations because of UAC restrictions. Your songs may already be associated with BB by the installer so you likely don't need to do anything. If you want to be sure, run Band-in-a-Box by right-clicking on the bbw.exe and selecting Run As admin, then in the program go to File | File Utilities | Associate File Types. RealBand is included with Band-in-a-Box so there should not be a separate disc for it.

Hi Andrew,

Yes, years old.

Whatever the message was about the registry doesn't seem to have stopped BIAB working.

I don't know my way around BIAB at all well. I have to say that I dislike "busy" interfaces, so BIAB irritates before I've even tried to use it, and the only platform on which I'd tried it on the past was a notepad PC, where the controls fields were larger than the music field.

Anyway, this morning I started it again on my desktop PC, under Win7 on VirtualBox as described. It didn't complain again, it seems to be running and producing music OK. With the much larger screen (22" widescreen rather than 10" widescreen) it also feels more realistic to use.

I guess the cluttered screen is to put all the main "goodies" up there in front of the user to say how rich a package this is, and I know it can be tidied, but "lots of stuff" is a two-edged sword.

I shall try to be patient and learn how to make it more comfortable for me. I can see the benefits, but at present I'm very likely just to quit out and go back to iRealPro, which is my usual platform. BIAB does offer the dots and melodies, etc., which is a real plus. I'm told RealBand sounds good, but unless or until I manage to use the CD, I can't try that.

My music PC has for years been 100% Linux, but as BIAB seems, so far at least, to run in VirtualBox I may consider adjusting that.

Thanks for you comment. Maybe I should consider asking on the fora if anyone else has yet tried VirtualBox or VMWare Player and what successes or failures others have had.

One of the perennial issues with the "too few people ask for it" is that people then don't bother to ask so it becomes self-fulfilling. I have no easy answer to that.

Gordon.

You can use Wine on Linux to run Biab/RealBand.
You can use ReaTrak on Linux, it will generate up the RealDrums.

This isn't directed at you Pipeline but since this thread got resurrected I will repeat what I've said many times on this forum regarding Win 10 and updates. I do not modify ANYTHING in Win 10. It's a total stock install. I have zero problems with Biab or Real Band. Sometimes when I get bored I wonder why, like I'm missing all the fun ya know?

Reread what Kent posted a few years ago:



All the IT, programmers and wannabe digital audio so called "pros" who pop up on these forums think they know better. To anybody who thinks that, read this again until it sinks in. And stop telling folks on these forums who barely understand email that they're supposed to jump into the deep end and do all these mods to Win 10.

Just stop it.

Leave Win 10 alone, you'll be much happier believe me. Does that mean it's perfect, no. I've had the occasional glitch after an update but man, NOTHING like what some post about and after a 20 page thread where people go off in all kinds of directions it turns out the guy who originally posted his problems is yet another 30 year computer tech/programmer and has tweaked the crap out of his system. And I mean EVERY TIME. And yet they refuse to acknowledge that. Oh no, it's gotta be something in the software, why I've tested it to death, been doing this for 30 years, it's the software I'm telling you!

What they don't understand is most of the patches that most software companies release take the latest Win 10 updates into account. Think about that for a minute. Don't do the updates what would you expect to happen? DO THE UPDATES and if a few things go haywire, deal with it, not that big of a thing.

Reread what Kent wrote. Again.

Bob

Until 2 days ago, I would have been with you, Bob.

My laptop crashed big time after this month's update. Not exactly sure what happened but the error message I saw was the hard drive died. The only thing different than any other day was my landline phone rang. It was plugged into the same power outlet as the laptop. Could be it, I don't know.

4 hours later and a system restore seems to fix it.

No the hard drive is fine.

Microsoft needs to be a bit more sure before releasing things. And, yes, the laptop is no longer plugged into that outlet.

...Deb

Here is/are my two-cents worth: Latest win 10 feature update to 1909 (Feb 2020). Left my Win 10 system at 90% upon forced restart for over 12 hours (you can shut down, but the next time you start up, update is forced) It also failed. Feature update to 1809 (Mar 2019)finally succeeded, but only with extra effort on my part. Check out the various forums (Microsoft, tenforums, etc. and you will see several users having like issues, especially with major updates (Feature). It's not the CPUs (Intel, AMD). I have multiple Win 7 systems, and they will stay that way, as they are functioning well. Even though Vista was problematic, it wasn't the nightmare of Win 8.0/8.1 or 10. Check out Cortana (viz., your friendly assistant), which is a resource (and privacy) hog. You can't remove or disable Cortana (ever see your mouse or keyboard get sluggish?), but you can modify the registry so that it doesn't go out to the internet (if connected) every time you type anything in the Windows search box. There is a simple mod to the registry limit the Windows search box to only search local (on your computer...possibly). At least this mod fixed the sluggish mouse/keyboard. Cortana logs every thing you type though. If you're not on line, it still caches for next time.

I still have (and use) Win XP Pro, with SONAR 5. Still reliable, and I have spare XPs if I ever need them.

True, Linux is not the cure-all, but the system/software update (if required) is far more reliable and more efficient than Windows. Reminds me of my earlier days with super and mini-super computers when updates were completely manageable and multi-intermediate reboots for updates/patches were unimaginable.

Rich

P.S. My old, non-computerized, non-solid state truck will still run when the modern vehicles get an EMP.

Plus 1 on Acronis

RIchCopy is a nice data backup tool (written by MS techs some time ago), but reliable, GUI interface, and configurable. Also keeps dates intact if desired. Google in on MS. multiple backup profiles definable by the user. I use it on XP, Vista, Windows 7 and Windows 10. And it is fast.

P.S. typo corrected "sata" to "data"