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Chris
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Not sure about over there, but over here its important that the body is back in the house .. means a lot to the law..
See when the intruder is in your house he is a threat
After chasing him down the street ; not so much of a threat. The victim became the attacker at that point
..I do understand your feelings though
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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#1. Shoot the S.O.B.
#2. Drag the dead body "back" in the home
Not saying this would or should work for everyone, but I promise that would be the plan around my house.
Later
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Where I used to live( Florida ) and were I live now ( North Carolina ) the use of deadly force is allowed anywhere if you feel threatened. Can be anywhere on a hiking trail on the street. Just need to feel threatened and BOOM your gone Mr./Ms bad person!
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The case pointed to here was much more than a case of self defense.
It was much worse than a simple self defense situation.
They took it upon themselves to be the judge, jury and executioner.
That is wrong any way you shake it.
Advocating the "drag 'em back inside" crap will not work, either. You will not beat the forensics anyway, and such is just plain WRONG.
--Mac
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Criminals have too many rights. He lost his when he entered some one elses home.
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Give the defender probation or a suspended sentence, but not jail time, after what he and his family have been through. That the offender, who is known to have committed this and numerous other crimes, was allowed to go free is a further travesty.
I have seen similar stories in the British news of individuals jailed for defending themselves, and others from Australia. The concepts of private property and the right to self defense are disappearing. Their world has indeed gone mad.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Quote:
The case pointed to here was much more than a case of self defense.
It was much worse than a simple self defense situation.
They took it upon themselves to be the judge, jury and executioner.
That is wrong any way you shake it.
Advocating the "drag 'em back inside" crap will not work, either. You will not beat the forensics anyway, and such is just plain WRONG.
--Mac
I did not say it was right or I'd beat the charge Mac, I just said that if someone was in my home and has threatened me or a family member and he/she happened to get outside after the initial confrontation the fight would not be over.
I consider it just plain WRONG when a law-abiding citizen is threatened in his or her own home, or anywhere else for that matter. Truth be told, I would not be doing any body dragging but I would do my best to put them to rest and then let the law and the good Lord pass their judgment when the time comes.
Merry Christmas
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Unfortunately Danny, you would have plenty of time to do in depth bible study in jail.
A bad incident happened to a neighbor who lived right across the street from me in Hermosa Beach, California about 15 years ago. I heard a loud boom and shortly there were police all over the place. The residence is a big 2 story condo with a short driveway leading to the garage. Two armed guys broke in, tied up the wife, threatened them with a guns, took some stuff and while one of them went down to the driveway and sat in his Porsche, the other one was still inside but got separated from the husband. Somehow he went upstairs, got a shotgun he kept in a closet, went out on the balcony and shot the guy in the car through the windshield killing him and the other one ran away and was captured later. Being this is in very liberal California, there was a huge hue and cry about was this murder, self defense or what. It was all you heard on the radio for months. Finally, no charges were filed because the homeowner was still threatened by the other armed guy still in the house and the car was still in his driveway and the one in the car could come back in any time looking for his buddy. As I remember all the legal analysis, that was the key, there was still one armed perp in the house and the one in the car had his gun on him and could have come back in so it's justified self defense even in California. I remember all the bleeding heart types talking about the one in the car could have been trying to get away but he was in the passenger side, not the drivers.
That kind of talk is easy Danny, it's a very difficult position to be put in for sure, but you don't want to spend 20 to life in a nice comfy prison with these kinds of guys as roommates. I'm sure they would love to have some fun with a self styled vigilante. Not to mention, once the threat is gone or at least diminished then it is wrong, you're turning yourself into The Punisher.
Bob
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Quote:
Criminals have too many rights. He lost his when he entered some one elses home.
I agree 100%!
When you are at the checkout line and they ask if you found everything say "Why, are you hiding stuff?"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I guess it all depends how much you actually know about this case. The article cited first here is perhaps a bit lopsided in its coverage. Quote:
THREE men have appeared in court accused of beating a man with a metal pole and cricket bat after he was said to have broken into one of their homes and held their family at knifepoint.
Munir Hussain’s family were held by three men with knives – but he fought back against one and attacked him with two relatives who lived nearby, Reading Crown Court was told.
Waled Salem, 56, previously of Boreham Wood, Hertfordshire, was left with a fractured skull and severe bruising of the brain after the street attack.
A witness said he thought Mr Salem was going to be killed.
Source
Quote:
Sentencing, Judge John Reddihough said it was his "public duty" to jail Hussain. He said that people should not be permitted to inflict "their own instant and violent punishment" or risk undermining the rule of law.
Source
We should be allowed to stop intruders at whatever level it takes to do so.
We do not have the right or authority to continue beating the intruder with a metal pole and a cricket bat in an effort to vent our own misguided rage or take our own avengement/revenge out on the intruder, crook or otherwise.
A Cricket Bat?
To the head?
Repeatedly?
I'd rather take my chances on gettin' shot at that point.
--Mac
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Yeah, sounds like it got ugly
Like I said, his goof was chasing the guy down the street. At that point the law (in this area) sees that the victim became the aggressor..
the rest is rage and stupidity in action.
Then again, being in his shoes, rage is something that may occur.. but controlling it is the issue
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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A man's gotta excercise self control.
Period, end of sentence.
--Mac
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I think the current legal criteria in the UK of using only 'reasonable' or 'proportional' force to defend oneself in these circumstance force is open to interpretation. In the heat of the moment and given a very real immediate threat to ones life from an intruder clearly intending to act violently who's to say what 'reasonable' force amounts to? However an intruder making their escape after a burglary where no one was physically threatened or hurt, does not come into this definition of real immediate threat i would think.
I would caution anyone in the USA getting their information on this or any other UK story from the Dail Mail whos coverage often qualifies for frequent satirical comment here.
Some years ago the this intensely right wing 'newspaper' ran a concerted campaign to free a man jailed for killing a fleeing burglar with a shot to the back as he ran from his property.
It's the kind of newspaper that tries to find easy solutions for complex problems and appeals to those looking for scapegoats for the worlds ills.
Its view on public spending and social programs is similarly to the right of Atilla the Hun, labelling the poorest and most vulnerable in society as a rabid feckless underclass, undeserving drain on public expenses.
For many here, the Daily Mail is a newpaper in very much the same sense as Fox News is a fair and unbiased purveyor of quality journalism or Anne Coulter is a sane commentator on American culture and politics.
Regards
Alan
Last edited by alan S.; 12/20/09 05:45 PM.
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Well, sadly, this is an easy one for me. But I do see Macs' point of view too.
Two guys come into my house and i dont know them, they are clearly "the enemy" now.
It's a reasonable assumption that they will do harm to me or my family. It's also a reasonable
assumption that when I kill the one but the other gets away, I'm guessing he'll come back for
retribution at some point. I will follow "the enemy" until i find him and extinguish him. Hopefully,
the publicity will serve as a deft deterant to any potential enemy from waltzing into someones home.
I wish I were more evolved than this but it is what it is. Too many times we've seen victoms of home invasions
( especailly here in Mich.) where people do what the bad guy says and there reward is death. And too many
times the bad guys dont get caught: or if they do, they get off or a light sentense. Yes, bad guys come into my home,
you should have no problem being the judge, jury and executioner. Very sad.....
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Although I wouldn't want to underestimate the level of violence this family was subjected to or prejudge the response of the jailed man in this or similar instances, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Proportional response should mean sufficient force to incapacite the the intruder. If in the process the perpetrator dies from an unexpected or unforseeable complication arising from such a proprtional response by the victim then this is grounds for leniency. However an attempt to go beyond incapacitation to actually a full red blooded attempt to kill the assailant is something that has to be weighed very carefully by a court of law for mitigating circumstances.
This is why we have laws and courts and legal systems; otherwise each person would be free to meet out his/her idea of justice to all and sundry without accounting to anyone but themselves
American culture is still completely caught up with its frontier myths of summary justice and rights gun ownership and this complicates the matter by tacitly encouraging vigillante style reactions that bypass the legal process and the rule of law. If America truly feels that the right to kill any person that intrudes on ones property whatever the circumstances or level of personal threat, then why does your legal system not reflect this? Could it be because the majority of people in the states actually feel this would be wrong?
Regards
Alan
Last edited by alan S.; 12/20/09 06:07 PM.
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Beautifully articulated, Al. Not a good job of hiding your anti-USA bent, but the equivicating is beautiful noetheless.  When two intruders come into your home and one of them puts a gun to your head while the other rapes your wife in front of you and your 10 year old daughter is next, doesn't it make your above pious diatribe seem astonishingly nieve? It does to me and most of this countrys' men who have to bear witness to how painfully inadaquate our legal system can be. ( can you say..OJ?:) I promise you if this scenario were to , God forbid, happen to you or someone you know, I'm pretty sure you'd have a much different predisposition.
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Quote:
In the heat of the moment and given a very real immediate threat to ones life from an intruder clearly intending to act violently who's to say what 'reasonable' force amounts to?
I think that any sane judge or jury would be able to come to that conclusion.
Quote:
The amount of force necessary to protect oneself or one's property. Reasonable force is a term associated with defending one's person or property from a violent attack, theft, or other type of unlawful aggression. It may be used as a defense in a criminal trial or to defend oneself in a suit alleging tortious conduct. If one uses excessive force, or more than the force necessary for such protection, he or she may be considered to have forfeited the right to defense. Reasonable force is also known as legal force.
A person is generally justified in using force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm if the person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. The person is also generally justified in using such extreme force to prevent or terminate another's unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling, if: (1) the entry is made or attempted in a violent manner and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent personal violence to himself or another then in the dwelling, or (2) he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.
emphasis added
Source: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Reasonable+Force
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@swanman
The Inadequacies of your legal system are well known to most I suspect, but that in itself doesn't give anyone carte blanche to sidestep the law as it stands. The way to change it is to campaign for change. That's how the law evolves.
My 'diatribe' as you put it doesnt preclude the use of force and if you read it you would see that i'm not against self defence or even a pre-emptive strike in the case of being held captive and having to witness the extreme violence you mention. In an instance like that it would take a very hard-hearted jury or an extremely cynical and skilfull defence lawyer to successfully argue against mitigating circumstances.
Im only against the kind of indiscriminate use of force that can happen say when an intruder is making his escape having caused no physical harm or the kind of response that says any tresspass on one's property or home, armed or otherwise is grounds for killing someone. Is that so difficult a concept to take on board?
That's not pious equivocation, its called making a valid distinction
Regards
Alan
Last edited by alan S.; 12/20/09 07:12 PM.
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There was a similar case over here some years ago, when a guy was charged with assault on a home intruder. I'll never forget his comments just before his court case. He said "I'd rather be judged by twelve of my peers, that carried in a coffin by six of my friends."
Cheers,
Keith
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