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I love the blend of the flugelhorn and flute together. Otherwise, with a trumpet, I would generally use a cup or harmon mute (no stem) to play with a flute.
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I'm still not getting it. All I'm talking about is changing the name of the notes or scale as it applies to other instruments. The Bb horn plays an Eb scale (to him) but it's F concert. If you simply changed the name to F nothing else changes. The notes are the same, the fingering is the same, the horn player no longer thinks of that sequence of notes as a Eb scale, that's all. It's an F scale.
Obviously this is just an intellectual exercise, no way are all of the music colleges all over the world going to change that convention. I've had this conversation before over the years and frankly no one can give a clear explanation as to why it really has to be this way. I boils down to what Mac said, basically all the people who figured this all out hundreds of years ago got it right. That's fine but not an explanation. What does the fundamental note the instrument plays have to do with it? If that fundamental note happens to be a G concert, so what? It's still a G. It's only a name. The C trumpet was mentioned along with the fact it is built differently and has a different sound. What's the problem with playing the C pitch on a regular trumpet and simply calling that note what it is, a C?
Bob
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G'day Bob, Quote:
All I'm talking about is changing the name of the notes or scale as it applies to other instruments. The Bb horn plays an Eb scale (to him) but it's F concert. If you simply changed the name to F nothing else changes. The notes are the same, the fingering is the same, the horn player no longer thinks of that sequence of notes as a Eb scale, that's all. It's an F scale.
Actually, it isn't really the same when you take into account that many musicians that play so called "tranpsosing" instruments also double on other instruments.
Sax players: Mostly Eb and Bb and occasionally C, add clarinet in Bb and A...
Trumpet/Cornet players: A, Bb, C, D and Eb
& etc. Lots of instruments fit the category.
So. Take the Trumpet. Concert C (3rd space) on a Bb horn is 1st valve, 4th partial. On an Eb horn it's 1st and 2nd valve, 3rd partial. On an A horn it's 2nd valve, 4th partial. On a D horn its 1st valve, 3rd partial and on a C horn it would be NO valves on the 3rd partial.
Confused yet? I sure am and I play the things... When I'm not on my 'bone or Eupho.
By doing the transposition in the music, I can pick up the trumpet the music is for and the written C is no valves, 3rd partial - very consistent - lets me concentrate on playin' the dots.
All same for the sax, move from Bari to Tenor to Alto to Soprano. Eb to Bb to Eb to Bb. Transpose the music and the player just plays the dots. No worries about octave shifts or fingering changes. Oh yeah, don't forget the C melody sax - just to confuse things even further.
It may seem odd to someone who plays a concert tuned instrument but believe me, it's MUCH easier for those of us who play transposing ones.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Trombonists are a tricky bunch in a lot of ways. The instrument seems to 'match' the personality. We stuffy horn players might bend or lip a note, they dick about slurring and trying to hit you with the slide, or tickle your ear. If their bell is big they can't see what's going on, so they keep playing. And playing. And then some of them want treble clef with the part for Bflat. Others for C. Then some of them want bass clef, in either Bflat or C. And some are just good enought that you can give them the eb tuba part and they can transpose it on the fly. And the double bass trombones can make the back of your head shake for 5 minutes.
Don't get me wrong, I will go out after and have a stout with them, but the only issue in the baritone sections is we fight over the 1st and 2nd parts. As there are 3 of us and it's my wife and the director's wife guess who loses that argument.
When orchestras of the entire world do things one way, right or wrong it's right.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
Trombonists are a tricky bunch in a lot of ways. The instrument seems to 'match' the personality...
Why thank you John. It's so nice to be understood... 
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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LOL, hey every Wednesday night I sit in front of 8 to 10 of the 20 or so who play trombone with us and I often have tears in my eyes from laughing. They do have a good time. The tuba players on the other hand are all so serious.
John Conley
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Quote:
... They do have a good time...
NEVER trust a man whose instrument changes shape while he's playin' it 
Say, wanna know the trick for playing an Eb part on the 'bone (or baritone)? Read it as concert BASS clef and add 3 flats.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Hey Bob, don't feel badly if you don't get it. It is confusing. In your example, if the Bb horn plays an Eb scale, it will be sound as a Db concert scale, not F. Since the horn is pitched one full step below concert pitch, the notes it plays when reading concert pitches will be one full step below concert pitch. If you want it to sound a concert pitch, you have write a note one full step above concert pitch to compensate. To hear a concert Eb scale from a trumpet, you write an F scale.
The reason I chose to write about the fingering issue, and not the tube length and fundamentals etc., was that there are a few exceptions. The trombones for the most part read bass clef and are taught that the open fundamental is indeed C, rather than Bb, even though the horn is pitched an octave below the Bb trumpet. So it can be done the way you say. Similar thing for baritones. Some learn bass clef and pitch it in C because they started out as trombone players. Some (like me) learn treble clef and Bb, because they started out on trumpet. When I write a part for a baritone horn, I first ask them which clef they want, and that tells me how they interpret the horn. Usually.
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Quote:
As there are 3 of us and it's my wife and the director's wife guess who loses that argument.
When orchestras of the entire world do things one way, right or wrong it's right.
There we go, now I get it! Thanks, guys
Bob
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In a 'true' brass band (English style) everything is supposed to be in Treble clef. Doesn't happen much unless the music was printed there and intended for brass band.
American (Sousa type) brass bands don't follow that as a rule.
The other rule we break in our band is we take all who show up. So instead of 2 Euphoniums and 2 Baritones we may have 4 of each.
Just found out our spring concert rehearsals start Wed. Heros is the title. I hope he leaves William Tell outta that one.
John Conley
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The thing that amazes me is that the transposition expertise of the pros who play in symphony orchestras. I have never understood why they just don't print out the notation, for their own instruments, since we've had that technology for a long time now.
Then those same folks also play the old style horns without any valves. Although I like to watch them, I have no interest in learning how to do that. I know a pro fr. horn player who plays a horn without valves and her articulation is incredible. Of course she also has a triple, made in Germany, for around $17,000.
And then there's improv.......
Stan
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Natural horn. No valves. Use your lips and hand. The old ones were painted inside the bells. We used them for a couple of Handel pieces recently.
And every once in a while our 'leader/teacher' Dr. Hank picks up a regimental horn that might have a crook to change from one key to the other, but often in F and he just improvises with us and leads with the other hand. It always sounds good, but I guess being a brass professor it should eh?
John Conley
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John, I think that you are very lucky to have the opportunity and experience of playing in that type of band.
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So, to beat a dead horse,
I take my Fake C sheet of say Blue Christmas in G
Enter the Chords
F9/F9-Fmaj9/C7
Transpose the Chords down 1 Tone
and get
Eb9/Eb9-Ebmaj9/Bb7
and I can play the notes as is on my sax
A/A-G-A/E-G-, but they will sound one tone lower and match the new chords in BIAB.
Please say it is so
:-)
Ron
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Looks right to me, Ron. What a tenor sax player thinks of as "C" in tenor sax music is actually Bb in concert pitch music. So, lowering the chords (in concert pitch) by 1 tone (as above) will match concert pitch chords to the tenor sax melody.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Ron--
Don't change the key signature to do that, as it would also change the chords and notes you see and have to read on the tenor sax.
instead, use the Transpose option found inside the Notation View Options or the one found in Prefs.
This will change what you see up one step, but leave the sounds playing at the original target Key and everything is easy from there on out.
--Mac
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