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i just want to use the software to make music. It is not a graphic program, it is a music creation tool, I don't need my hammer to sparkle or shine just drive nails!!!




+1

Also designing a GUI is sort of like farming turkeys, move the water trough to the other side of the pen and the turkeys will die of thirst. (... or so the story goes...) BIAB has a large existing install base so any changes to the interface should to be phased in gradually.

Not a request but more of a suggestion - keep the existing layout, but explore the idea of converting the GUI to WPF. Over the long run it I think it would save on maintenance costs, and probably increase stability along the way.

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I'm very much in favour of decluttering, dockable toolbars, more scroll options, better menus and colour co-ordination etc. The melodist and soloist screens are good cases in point. These are really difficult to look at and could have clearer headings leading your eye into different groups of functions.

The point about BIAB's limited arrangement functions being more important then the GUI is well made. The decision to go down the route of audio realism disguises the lack of development in the program's core midi functionality.

For example a lot could be done to improve the style editor including
..longer pattern sequences (why only two bars). Its not only in modal jazz tunes that musicians think in these longer sequences.
..more than one dedicated pattern chain
..global note mapping for altering voicings
..better and more varied chord masks
..abilty to determine what scales the chords are embellished by

Chord options could have
...a funtion to determine the direction (up or down) of the outer voices (bass and top note of chord) in relation to the previous chord.
...An option to include the alternate bass note in the piano voicing as is available in other auto accompaniment programs.

The option to allow/disallow embellishments in settings for this song should actually work and not be overriden by the command in the style editor.

Realism issues could be addressed by upping the resolution of the midi, allowing 8th resolution chords shots and holds that actually sound as 8ths.

i haven't even begun to mention the everyday commands such as the (in)ability to cut and paste on the chord sheet!! ... come on guys!! the lack of multiple undos. the inability to drag more than one note to a new location in the style maker......


These are just a few of the things BIAB could and should focus on imo.

After all just how many real tracks and real drums can you come out with at any one time relative to all the styles that exist in midi?


Regards


Alan

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There's some simple things that could be done to improve the UI of the program even if you're not going to completely change it.
A good example is dialogs like this (I don't have BIAB 2010 but I'm assuming the dialog hasn't changed)
http://www.pgmusic.com/images/bb2007_screenshot4.gif

The layout is amateurish.
Now I know there's going to be a lot of long-term users that jump to the defence of BIAB but please understand this is an attempt to help pgmusic improve their product.
There's good reasons to have a layout that is well-aligned, it actually makes the dialog easier to read/use, this is a well established principle in professional software design. A simple analogy is the use of text alignment in newspapers and books which aids in readability.
The UI in BIAB has actually been used in computer software books as examples of how NOT to design dialogs, I think this is a sad state of affairs for pgmusic and what's worse is the small amount of time it would take to correct these sorts of things shows a lack of pride and professionalism at pgmusic.

jr335 #5576 01/12/10 04:23 PM
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Quote:


The UI in BIAB has actually been used in computer software books as examples of how NOT to design dialogs, ...





Care to cite reference, please?

No offense, but these days, it seems that 87% of all stats are being made up on the spot...




--Mac

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jr335 #5578 01/12/10 07:28 PM
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I read that book ten years ago.

Anything else you can cite, particularly one that is current?


BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I read that book ten years ago.

Anything else you can cite, particularly one that is current?




So you're saying that because the book is old the principles no longer apply and BIAB can ignore it?
I don't agree. There's been no change in thinking about these issues and the screen snap I linked to shows that these problems are still in the product. What's worrisome is that the book is 10 years old and BIAB still has these problems.

jr335 #5580 01/13/10 03:56 PM
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I must say I think jr has a point. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for some slick, ultra-modern eye-candy piece of CPU and memory hogging kind of UI that loses functionality 'cos you can no longer find anything - a la Office 2007/vista/Win7.

No, rather, just some attention to detail and a more regular, logical layout. My own experience is that you "get used" to it, but that really isn't good enough. I like BIAB, haven't looked at RB yet 'cos I really don't have the need. BIAB does far more than my current requirements as it is really just a sophisticated rehearsal tool for me. I don't even use the notation editor because, despite its supporters, I still reckon it is far too mouse oriented. So if I need a melody, I create it in NWC, export as MIDI and import - WA-A-AY quicker for me.

And before I get jumped on, I realise I have zero studio experience, zero music (electronic) production experience, and probably zero other "important" areas of background to really "appreciate" what BIAB can do. That's all irrelevant. Two years ago I was a newbie to the product. I still am... Why? My time is limited, I need a product that is quick and easy to learn or it will take literally years for me to get up to speed. This is how BIAB is for me.

In fairness, I'm having to learn more than just how to use the product, there's all that background mentioned above I somehow need to make up for too.

BUT, if the UI were to be improved then my learning curve would be more of a mountain and less of a sheer precipice to ascend... Unfortunately, I'm at a loss to explain HOW to really improve it because I still haven't come to grips with all the functionality of BIAB. Like Mac says, I don't know what it is that I don't know, and the UI is making it harder for me to leap that particular hurdle.

RB appears to be the same in important areas, let me cite an example from just this morning (my time):
From the Windows 7 Oddities thread in the RB forum:
Quote:

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the feedback! After heeding your advice, I've seen the following changes in the StyleList.
Real Styles 264 increased to 344
Styles with RealTracks 765 increased to 857
Styles with RealDrums 755 stayed at 755

Are you or anyone else able to confirm that the numbers of RealTrack styles are correct now?

Hi rharv,

Thanks for wading in. I believe the situation you describe is exactly what happened to me. I don't typically launch a program from the install, but I'm pretty sure I did in this case. Figures!

Glen




Looked interesting so I scrolled up to find what Andrew had said:
Quote:

Quote:

As far as the missing styles go, I fixed that myself. I missed one of the 14 RealTrack DVDs during the install. This is a summary of the RealTrack styles now, does this sound right?




That looks pretty close. Open the RealTracks window, and then check the box 'Show styles that are NA' at the bottom. Do you have any N/A (not available) instruments? This is a good way to verify that you have all of the RealTracks to date. If you have any N/A, you could sort then by Set number (by clicking at the top of that column) and see if there is a particular set you are missing.

Once you have done that, I would next download the latest RealTracks update for sets 67-82 to make sure you aren't missing any of the latest .STY files. There were some .STY (Band-in-a-Box styles) added after the initial release.
http://www.pgmusic.com/support_windows_realdrums.htm#RealTracks67-82




Seems reasonable? Does to me, so I thought I check it out on my own copy of RB - just out of curiosity - can someone PLEASE tell me where to find
Quote:

Open the RealTracks window, and then check the box 'Show styles that are NA' at the bottom.



'cos it sure ain't obvious to me... I've searched every menu and button I can find and the closest thing there is to anything that resembles something associated with "Styles" is the button with the ellipses (...) next to the style name field. This thing takes you to an open file dialogue so's you can go find a style by name - OK if you know the name of what you want but useless to me...

To make matters worse, how do you select a style in the way you can in BIAB - I found it by accident - you click on the style field itself, not a button, and it still doesn't have what I'm looking for...

I'm sorry guys, but this UI is too "existing user" oriented. If you know your way round it's probably easy, if you're brand new to things PGMusic it's near impossible. UI's should be as intuitive as possible - the CUI (Common User Interface) standard was created for a reason (though m$ seem to be moving away from it with Office 2k7 etc.) - as a seasoned computer user (over 25 years as a professional in the game) I should be able to get reasonable functionality without going anywhere near a user guide. The guide should only be necessary for me when I start to get into the more complex and/or esoteric features - not the BASICS.


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Lawrie #5581 01/13/10 05:21 PM
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I thought he made a good point also, and he did back up his claim with a cited reference.

But I still think he went over the line with that last personal attack.

"lack of pride and professionalism"

He was doin' just fine up to the end.

There's no need to take it to down to that level like that.


--Mac

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Hi, Lawrie -

Does this help? Look at the bottom left.



John

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jford #5583 01/13/10 10:45 PM
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G'day John,
thanks mate, that's it. My problem was I didn't know I needed and thus couldn't find how to get to the:
"Assign RealTracks to Track" dialogue. Even after you showed me the dialogue (above) I still had trouble 'cos it's called:
"Select and Generate RealTrack..." in the context menu, and seems to be only accessible from the context menu. That in itself isn't so bad, but...

While I'm happy to admit some of this is pure ignorance on my part, surely the context menu option and the resultant dialogue title could match? Or am I just being plain thick?

Then, you do get into the dialogue, select a style and where's the OK button? Huh? What the? Ok I'll just close it and see what happens - Oh, whaddya know, that did it. It should have an OK button. Now that I know there'll be no more confusion, but it cost me unnecessary time before I gave up and closed the dialogue, only to have it do what I was looking for... This is an unfriendly dialogue. It should have a cancel button too

There is no doubt in my mind that BIAB and RB are amazingly powerful and versatile products, and I'm happy to concede that power brings, of necessity, complexity. But there is no need to add to the complexity by having inconsistencies and non compliance with standards in the UI.

E.G in my previous missive I noted that access to style selection in RB is by clicking in the style name field - in BIAB there is a button to open the selection dialogue - why the difference? They both should have buttons for that task - that would be consistent with the CUA standard...

/grumble

<edit> corrections and changes in italics.

Last edited by Lawrie; 01/14/10 02:59 AM.
Lawrie #5584 01/14/10 02:31 AM
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Hi, Lawrie -

Okay, I'm not defending the choices made about the UI, but here's my take on it.

RB's roots are from PowerTracks, not BIAB and have some BIAB features (added fairly recently).

For style selection, you can also click on the style name field in BIAB, and you can get into the style selection dialog there (although you get a menu first in BIAB; in RB you go right into it). So in that sense, they're not so different. But of course you have to know to do it that way. Buttons would probably be better. But they do share a common way of accessing the style selection dialog, just not the one that you intuitively expect.


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jford #5585 01/14/10 02:54 AM
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G'day John,
Quote:

<snip>
But they do share a common way of accessing the style selection dialog, just not the one that you intuitively expect.



(bolding and underline mine)

That's just my point. I recognise the relationships between the products though I don't have personal experience with Power Tracks, and the benefits of maintaning familiar things. However, the UI should be as intuitive as possible.

I really can't imagine how huge a task it would be to "fix" the UI. It certainly wouldn't be trivial, but why not look at a series of updates over the next few releases to spread the pain? This would also enable users to grow accostomed to the updates in a measured way as well. Ultimately new users will be presented with a less daunting UI and will be able to concentrate on their projects rather than on how to use the product.


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jr335 #5586 01/14/10 06:22 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

I read that book ten years ago.

Anything else you can cite, particularly one that is current?




So you're saying that because the book is old the principles no longer apply and BIAB can ignore it?
I don't agree. There's been no change in thinking about these issues and the screen snap I linked to shows that these problems are still in the product. What's worrisome is that the book is 10 years old and BIAB still has these problems.



jr335, I didn't say that at all.

But, you said "computer software books" (plural) and I'm simply asking if you have more examples to back up your statement. I enjoyed reading the book you cited and am interested in reading more about this topic.


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Quote:

But, you said "computer software books" (plural) and I'm simply asking if you have more examples to back up your statement. I enjoyed reading the book you cited and am interested in reading more about this topic.




Sorry I was expecting to get jumped on for criticizing BIAB as usually happens here. I should have been specific, it's only the book I quoted as far as I'm aware.

jr335 #5588 01/17/10 03:26 PM
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Fair and constructive criticism of the program is welcome here, and can even garner support and cause positive change.

Exaggerated criticism, and making it appear someone said something they did not, will indeed get jumped on, as it should.

I accept your apology about the exaggeration.


BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Would we lose BiaB's very nice standalone ".exe" configuration that allows us to delete its folder or copy overtop for upgrades without losing anything by development moving to these "better" GUI tools.

In a lot of cases, I'm afraid that may be the case.

Just something else to add to the design decision table's list of inputs.


--Mac

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an easy way around the gui discussion would be to use "themes" whereby you can pick the one that you like. I know that you can customise the colors in biab, but a few built in themes wouldn't go amiss.

Paddy


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pwhack #5591 01/23/10 04:23 AM
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Wait a minute Matt. Do you in turn apologize to jr335 and the rest of us for maintaining and propagating the wretched GUI cited in GUI Bloopers? Just asking...

Last edited by bonecall; 01/23/10 04:25 AM.
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I think that if any apology is due here, it should come from jr335, who typed an unwarranted personal attack concerning the pgmusic development staff.

"a lack of pride and professionalism at pgmusic"

Not from Matt, certainly.


--Mac

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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!

Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.

Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!

Special offers until December 31st, 2025!

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Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.

Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!

Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!

We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!

Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!

In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!

Special offers until December 31st, 2025!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

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Along with version 2026, we've released an incredible lineup of new content! There's 202 new RealTracks, brand-new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two new RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!

Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows and save up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special offer—available until December 31, 2025. Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page to explore all available upgrade options.

2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
Our Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK are loaded with amazing add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is included with most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows packages, but you can unlock even more—including 20 unreleased RealTracks—by upgrading to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49. Browse the full contents of each package and listen to demos here.

XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!

XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!

The XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs special offers are now available until August 31st at 11:59pm PDT!

Ready to take your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 experience to the next level? Now’s the perfect time! Expand your style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs—packed with a wide variety of genres to inspire your next musical creation.

What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?

XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-9 includes 900 styles!

Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). With over 3,500 styles (and 35 MIDI styles) included in Xtra Styles PAKs 1-20, the possibilities are endless!

Get the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.

Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!

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