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I'm sure this has been asked many times previously, but I just got to know: does anyone know of the existence of a group formed to share BIAB (or RB) tunes that utilize RealTracks and RealDrums (much like the BIAB sharing group that has existed for many years that have a huge archive of the BIAB tunes prior to the release of the RealTracks and RealDrums)? There is no reason why the swapping of individually created tunes would be illegal, right? I have several, for example, that I'd love to swap with someone for other tunes that I don't have.
I want to save hours, if possible, on the way to getting a much larger collection of RT and RD tunes....I'm not getting any younger, and would rather spend my time playing music as opposed to sitting at my computer for hours implementing RealTracks and RealDrums into every tune from scratch. Some tunes might require further tweeking to suit one's needs but that would be easy to do compared to starting from scratch with each and every tune.
Thanks in advance,
cchallum
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Quote:
There is no reason why the swapping of individually created tunes would be illegal, right?
Depends on what you mean by "individually created tunes". If you are referring to the use of BIAB or RB to recreate tunes that are still under copyright protection, then you can create them all day long... but I'm not so sure it is legal to trade them (even for free).
There was recently a big stir on the YAHOO BIAB site, and all the archives containing melodies were removed. It is my understanding that what remains is just chords (which can't be protected by copyright)
The issue of legality is separate from the issue of practicality. Whether or not anyone would take the time to prosecute individuals trading files remains unknown until it happens. (remember the small-time prosecutions when the peer to peer wars were in full swing?)
But I would hate to implicate PGMusic in any way by making them even passively associated with an activity that could cause legal problems.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Journeyman
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if its original material then I dont see the point but if its backing tracks relating to covers of artists then Im not sure what the legal position is in sharing said tracks.Cheers Frankie
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There are many file sharing sites already. Just Google for them. From what I've read on this forum and others, as long as there's no melody, the file sharing is OK. Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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In addition to the copyright problems and there would be copyright problems because I'm pretty sure you're talking about your favorite songs with melodies, the bigger problem is file size. RT/RD/s are audio files not midi. Midi files are nothing sizewise compared to audio files. Even reduced to MP3 size the average audio song is 3-6mb is size, way too big for somebody to have thousands online all in one place. It takes real money to have a website with that much storage and downloading capability. One of the reasons for owning Biab in the first place is to allow you to create your own library of tunes.
It is absolutely settled, no dispute at all, sharing coprighted files for free is illegal. Period. It does not matter at all if there's money involved or not. Yeah, I know we all copied our vinyl records onto cassettes and gave them to friends all the time and nobody cared. The thing is cassettes were not the same quality as the original vinyl and of course there was no way to put that one copy online so millions could get it, but now digital copies are perfect and that's the problem, not just with music but movies too. Copying a tv show to a degraded VCR and giving the tape of a friend, no problem but copying the latest release of Avatar digitally to your hard drive as a perfect high definition movie then posting it online, big problem. As far as copyright goes, there no difference between Avatar and a 50 year old song if the copyrights are still in effect and song copyrights last for 70 years and can be renewed for another 70.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I disagree with the statement about no difference between making money and free performances. I can play any song at an open mic (no money involved) if I don't claim it to be my work, or have 20 friends over to my house and play a cd, no money involved, and no copyright violation. Copyrights exist to protect the work from being claimed as someone else's and/or denying compensation to the artist. If I make money from someone else's song I am required to compensate them.
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Filesize shouldn't be a concern. The other person just needs to have the same RealTracks as the song used. The actual size of a file saved with RealTracks is not that bad at all, starting with BiaB 2010 anyway.
The melody/copyright issue is still the same as it always was. But, as mentioned, the song with chords and no melody would not apply -- as I understand the laws.
--Mac
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Quote:
I disagree with the statement about no difference between making money and free performances.
Really? And this is based on what? If all you're talking about is playing for your friends at home, sure no problem with that but public performances, no way. Understand all I'm doing here is quoting the law as anybody can read it, I totally agree all of us, including me, do this kind of stuff all the time, but it doesn't make it "legal".
An open mic situation implies that's in a commercial establishment. That means they are paying royalties to ASCAP or BM I, so you as a performer don't even realize it. I do lots of gigs every year and except for some backyard parties, everybody is paying ASCAP or BMI. It's just a small flat fee based on the size of the place because it's impossible to keep track of the actual song names but in big places like Vegas casinos and the like, they do have to keep track of the individual songs and pay royalties on them.
This has been discussed to death on these forums with tons of links to various sites from Wikipedia to different universities. Just do a forum search or use Google, you can read all about it. Start with Wikipedia and the Harry Fox Agency.
Trust me, money has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Boiled down the deal is you have no right to do anything at all with a copyright protected work except play it for yourself at home, that's it. No public performances unless somebody is paying royalties, no copying and giving the copies to anybody, no rearranging a song and putting that up on a forum, none of that without permission.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Thanks for the discussion.......I guess I'll enter the following in the Wish List: Just like RealDrums, after checking the box requesting it to do so, takes a "stab" at picking the "best/closest" drums that it senses would be a good RD substitute for the MIDI drums in a given MIDI tune, how about a similar capability for the RT instruments. Even if the choice made for the automatic RT substitutions might need further modifications before being ready for a gig, for practice sessions, I suspect it might be an improvement over standard MIDI instruments. I know, I know, just give PGMusic a few more minutes, they're probably already well on the way to doing this type thingy. This approach would probably save many of us several hours toying around particularly with various RTs and Real Styles.
What a fun piece of software.....and what a fantastic forum (I know this is said so often by all of us...and it should be.....I'm thinking that some of you on this forum should get into some of our government positions....based on how I see you handle yourselves on this forum, you'd have my vote already although I only know you vitually). Oops, sorry for the political "tangent".
cchallum
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Anybody quailified for a gummint position is also too smart to get sucked into it.
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Quote:
if its original material then I dont see the point but if its backing tracks relating to covers of artists then Im not sure what the legal position is in sharing said tracks.Cheers Frankie
Chord progressions aren't copyrightable. Anything with melody and lyrics are automatically covered under US copyright law. Plus if your backing track has enough "song specific" licks in it, even if it has no melody, it is a copyright violation. How many licks? Depends on the jury.
Quote:
I disagree with the statement about no difference between making money and free performances. I can play any song at an open mic (no money involved) if I don't claim it to be my work, or have 20 friends over to my house and play a cd, no money involved, and no copyright violation. Copyrights exist to protect the work from being claimed as someone else's and/or denying compensation to the artist. If I make money from someone else's song I am required to compensate them.
You may disagree, but the law does not.
If you perform a song at an open mic affair, and if the place you are playing does not have an ASCAP license, both you and the venue are in violation of copyright laws. If you sing "Happy Birthday" at a private birthday party, you are in violation of the law.
The copyright laws make no distinction between performance for profit or free. In either case if you perform a copyrighted work, you are breaking the law.
Now the chances that you get caught and prosecuted by singing "Happy Birthday" at your child's 6th birthday party are next to zero, but depending on how popular the place were you are singing something "for free" is, there is a real possibility of legal action.
This is why so many restaurants without an ASCAP license make up their own "Happy Birthday" song instead of singing the more traditional one. They don't want to take even a small chance on a quarter of a million dollar fine and 5 years in prison.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
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Notes is, of course, right on with that assessment.
Most musicians who play out at venues don't even know about the licensing fees that are paid by the venue in order to have musicians in there playing cover tunes. "Out of sight and out of mind," I guess.
Most musicians don't seem to know very much about the true nature of the music business anymore. A pity, but it is what it is.
--Mac
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Oops. I was wrong - again. Thanks for the input and setting me straight, guys. I need to do some better research before I shoot my mouth off on a subject. Live and learn.
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Sorry, but this is one topic that REALLY makes me angry.
First, just because there is a law for something doesn't make it right! Do you know how many musicians have been put out of work because a club or small venue can't afford to pay the music Mafia Fee? And that's exactly what it is.
And, it is amazing to me that music education in general is crippled because you can't share a tune or exercise containing a Melody. I can't count the number of music textbooks that have to use unknown melodies because of this.
On the issue of file sharing>There is no reason why a person should not be able to share a tune they made in Band in a Box. I can't believe we have all this computer technology, but can't really use it for full effect, just because a song written 50 years ago doesn't get paid for again. This is not Pirate Bay Folks! This is musicians around the globe trying to help each other.
Let me remind you of the massive rip off that has taken place since 1984 when CD's first became available. The music companies defended the price of CD's by saying "We have to pay for this new technology, the price will come down in 1 or 2 years". Yeah......we all know that didn't happen. And what about the massive fee's charged by the music publishing companies? Thank God many small record labels are springing up and the internet is finally taking their huge market share away. In some ways, there is justice after all.
It is a huge disservice that we don't now have a forum for sharing our BIAB creations. It would be a great place to discuss ideas and techniques, a great learning tool. And just like the music removed on Youtube videos, everybody loses.
Sometimes you have to speak out when the law is wrong.
OK, I've just put on my flak jacket.....bring it on.
Ed
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Existing laws can be a pain -- and there are ways to go about getting them changed, Ed. Yes, it can be a slow process. Until they can be changed, though, we should strive to obey them in all but the most grievous of them IMO.
There is also the "other side" of this coin, and that is the owner of the song, not always a big record company at all, but a single songwriter or the songwriter's immediate family to consider, too.
There is not a simple answer to the problem, much as we'd like there to be.
--Mac
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Oops, Mac, I just now read your reply, but I've already typed the verbage below and am sending it out just to hear any further angles on this stuff:
Okay, let me use the scenarios below to attempt to get my thoughts clear about what has been said here:
If I download a free MIDI of Bob Will's tune Faded Love from a Web Site, which of the following are True (T) and which are false (F):
1. The Web Site has violated the law if the tune includes the melody (T or F)...it's T, right?
a) Regardless of the answer to the above, there are still many sites on the Web that permit many many MIDI files to be downloaded free that include the melody (T or F)....it's T, right?
b) If I download thousands of MIDI files from a site whereby each tune excludes the melody, everything is fine and no one is in violation of the law (T or F)....It's T, right?
c) If I enhance one of the tunes gotten via the b) part approach, am I okay in playing those as backup rhythm at a gig (T or F)...it's T, right?
2. If no melody is included in the downloaded tune, then:
a) I can modify the tune (e.g., using RealTracks and RealDrums) in any way I wish and play it at gigs (or anywhere) with everything being legal (T or F)...it's T here, right?
b) If I put a melody into this thing, is it now illegal to play at a gig (or anywhere)....even if it was myself that generated the melody?
c) I cannot accept any tune (written by someone else) from anyone if it has a melody included'''even if it was done originally and maybe used RT and RD to do so?
d) I cannot make a tune and send free to anyone (even if it's my wife) if it's a tune whose melody I generated and included in the tune (T or F)...it's F here, right?
I'm stopping with the scenarios since I'm getting depressed with thinking about all this.....I might as well continue spending hours and hours modifying existing tunes with the use of RealTracks and RealDrums and just play them around my house for practice....that is, if I really want to be safe from the legal issues.
Last question....if I replace the word "MIDI" with "MP3" in the above discussion, there's no reason the answers would be any different, right?
Where specifically does one find the "law" in black and white that clearly provide the answers to all this stuff....anyone know it's web address (because there does seem to be quite a bit of disagreement about such)? Oops, I asked so many questions that most of you will probably choose to ignore this....however, further clarity from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
cchallum
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Just reread Notes post, Challum. He's actually running a business so he's been advised by his lawyers about this and has it nailed. As to reading the source docs just Google "copyright law", or "digital copyright" or even search these forums using those search words, people have posted good links before. Someone posted a link to actual court cases fairly recently, you should be able to find it. When you do, it's called read it and weep. I read some of the cases and they were based on the musical hooks we all know and love, not just lyrics. If a piece of music has something that is easily identifiable like the guitar intro to Satisfaction, that's part of the copyright too. What got me about those court cases was how well versed the judges were. The written opinions went on and on about classical music theory, harmonic relationships, stuff like that. The writers are obviously well educated music pros.
Hey, Barry no worries I just got out of rehab after having my mouth transplanted for the upteenth time. Seems like every time I get a new one, the thing wants to keep running off...
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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The US Copyright webpage makes it easier than ever to answer any of your copyright questions. Best to always get these things from the source: http://www.copyright.gov/ Bookmark it. Take note of the FAQ section. --Mac
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Well question 2B would be a fine example to confuse you with.
If the backing was just chords and you created the unique melody it may be fine.
However if the backing tracks had an identifiable lick (or even a certain identifiable chord voicing sequence) it may be enough to trigger violation. It is gray, and getting muddier.
Just write yer own songs!
Best way to stay out of trouble.
However Ed is in Mexico, so our US law may not be the one he needs to follow!
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quote:
It is a huge disservice that we don't now have a forum for sharing our BIAB creations. It would be a great place to discuss ideas and techniques, a great learning tool.
I thought that's what THIS forum was for... discussing ideas and techniques...
and it isn't illegal to share your own creations... people share their BIAB creations here every day, legally. It's just illegal to share the creations of other people who paid money for the legal ownership and sole right to distribute what they paid for.
regarding the phrase "it is a huge disservice"
To me, a disservice occurs when somebody else fails to do what they were SUPPOSED to do. If I fly to one airport but my luggage goes to a different airport, that's a disservice because I paid them to provide a service, and they messed it up. But if my neighbor fails to mow my lawn, that isn't a disservice, because taking care of MY life is MY responsibility, not his.
Calling something a disservice implies that it is somebody else's responsibility to provide a service that would make your life more pleasant, and the fact that such service has not been provided in a timely manner is a source of disappointment and irritation.
One of the cool things about the web is that it levels the playing field and empowers us all to set up whatever kind of media content we want. If it seems unacceptable to you that a BIAB music sharing site does not already exist, all the tools exist for you to create one. There is no reason to do without that which is in your own power to create.
By no means am I trying to pick a fight, Ed. I appreciate what you are saying and I greatly respect the contributions you make to this forum and to the world of music in general. My intent here is simply to offer a counterpoint to what you said, and point out that it comes across in a way that I don't think you intended.
You are clearly a self-actualized guy who takes care of business, like most of the people on this forum. I'm just trying to steer the terminology away from phrases and ideology used in entitlement mentality, because it has become so prevalent in our society that it will creep in under the door and take over if we don't relentlessly identify it and replace it with thinking that encourages us to provide our own solutions rather than expecting solutions from others..
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Last Chance! The Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® Special Ends Today (May 31, 2026) at 11:59pm PDT!
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Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.
If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!
202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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