Before somebody stops me short, I understand Utility track generating RTs is a first step. But since this is my #1 request, I will be critical of it, unless I get thrown out of this forum of course
Why ridiculous RT picker? When Tobin explains how to use it, he KNOWS what he is looking for. Tobin, I am sure, this is not the case with 90% of users. Most of us are used to "normal" RT picker and proper sorting. I understand that it is early to merge the two, but why not have exact same picker, a duplicate but for Utility tracks? You already have the code, the tables. Make it different color for now to differentiate the two. Why re-invent the wheel and confuse users?? What I am afraid of, it will solidify itself as "loop" picker, then it will be harder and more complicated to re-write things. It will be another feature that is hidden and forgotten. Please, take this one with full respect. Please consider same style picker as with regular tracks. Perhaps a tabbed view later on, but please keep things unified. Thank you.
The interface reminded me of MIDI Super Tracks Picker. It's also a similar setup to the RT soloists found in the Soloist generating window. Maybe that's why it felt OK to me. That said, I'm pretty sure that this is just the beginning. Who knows where it will end up!
Team PG must be pulling out all the stops and doing a ton of "behind the scenes" work right now! Congratulations all. You're certainly moving mountains with these new innovations!
Every December it is like this. All these changes occurring one week after the new product launch. Are these changes by design or are they really in response to users feedback in the past week? I understand the bug fixes, this is not unusual for PGM at launch. But, will the Utility tracks now change again because users ask for a different GUI and where was the utility pack picker a week ago when the utility packs were released.
Oh, well best to just sit back and enjoy the front row seat to this Chinese fire drill. I am glad you guys have the time and energy deal with all this. Smoke should be clearing in a week or two when I jump on board with 2021
By the way, this picker looks exactly like the RealTrack picker in 2020. So that is consistent. I tried to show a picture below, but it is cutoff on my screen in BIAB. I guess I have to do a factory reset!!!
Noel, does not answer the question. Why picker should be dumbed down?
Ok, you can hide the holds column... For now...
Please consider normal picker, the one that could easily be merged or tabbed into existing one, at least sorting, positions, visuals. That what most people use. Move the "right" mountains to avoid tears down the line. I am just afraid you going to make it to the point where it will just "work" and stop there. And then it will be twice as hard to redo (Loop picker a good example of that) Please, please do not take this shortcut.
When you get a chance, can you please tell me what you like about the the Realtrack Picker in the main BIAB program and why you prefer that over the Utility RT picker?
The reason I ask is because I've been playing around with the Realtrack picker for the Utility tracks, and it's immensely powerful. Seriously. The combination of using preset filters and the filter line gives "searching" muscle for finding RTs that's very impressive. I'm a fan of this new one.
What I'm hoping to find out is where it's lacking for you so that I can see if this new-styled picker does the job or not.
Noel, Sure. Hopefully, this message will not be pulled and we can have a civil conversation.
Issues I have with Utility track picker:
Aesthetics of pickers: BIAB is suffering greatly from endless menus, boxes etc. Pickers are no exception. They are not streamlined and do not conform to design of second (third) decade of 21st century. Which I think is greatly deterring potential followers. I believe there is very little attention given to this matter. In my humble view, things should get pulled together, not fragmented even more than they are. So having "yet another box" is a bad idea from design point. Tracks (RT's, RD's Midi) are the main treasure of the Box, why have them scattered around in strange, hard accessible places? I think they deserve better.
Functions of the picker: Before getting to specifics, bear in mind that Utility Tracks are more or less advanced option and to have "styles that work"... is not a good choice there for majority of people who will use these. I am sure these users will have a better idea of what will work better for them.
Now specifics: No sorting by feel No sorting by type of instrument No sorting by genre No sorting by tempo No sorting by time signatures. No Sorting by date No sorting by set
----
Noel, personally I think you are asking a very strange question. If you had to pick ONE picker (from what is available) which would you chose, the main or the Utility picker? Second question, if it was up to you to leave only ONE picker for everybody who use the software, which one would you pick for them? And a final question, since all of Real tracks HAVE sorting already, why dumb the picker down, throwing away all that VERY useful function away?
If it was up to me, I would give people the duplicate of main picker (for now) for Utility tracks, because it has the best sorting from what is available. Same format, same window. perhaps different color theme for now, to avoid confusion between the two. In future, I would prefer a SINGLE unified tabbed picker and it will be much easier to do, because pickers would be nearly identical. But I feel if a wrong turn is made now, it would be twice as hard (or even harder) to fix it down the line.
I sincerely thank you for taking the time to note the information down. You've given me something to play around with. Until I've played properly with all those options, I reserve my judgement on which I like best.
Noel, There a couple of other things, but one came to mind (late) that I want to mention. Most likely a user will be making his/her own "band" when using Utility tracks. For example, I almost never use pre-made styles. I use them mainly for audition / inspiration. So a proper sorting tool is a must for somebody who is not using original Rt/Rd/Midi set.
To me personally, extra generating tracks are #1 wish/request. I just want to see it done more or less properly from the start. It is not a "feature" it will be more like a core workflow item and I see myself using it at least 8 out of 10 times.
A civil statement regarding the conversation to this point in time. None of the posters seem to be aware the StylePicker Tobin accesses in the video has been around since the StylePicker GUI was redesigned/upgraded a couple of years ago and can be accessed by right clicking on a RealTrack and selecting "all", "chording", or "soloist". If you are aware, I apologize if I've misread the conversation but no one has made mention of it's previous existence and readers may assume it's a new feature introduced with Utility Tracks.
Regarding the concern mentioned of aesthetics of pickers; I don't recall this concern ever being mentioned prior to this post and there's been opportunity to address it before now. It may only be you folks unfamiliarity and lack of use of those RT selection options causing your current concern with the GUI look. I did a quick search of a few tutorial videos and in each of them, Tobin did use the 'main RT' menu and never accessed any of these specialty menus.
The normal picker is still available on all of the BIAB Mixer Legacy Tracks, from the RT Picker radio button and File Menus and can be used exactly as they've been used since the RealTrack Picker redesign several years ago so no current workflow feature has been lost. I agree with you that "Most likely a user will be making his/her own "band" when using Utility tracks. For example, I almost never use pre-made styles. I use them mainly for audition / inspiration. So a proper sorting tool is a must for somebody who is not using original Rt/Rd/Midi set." and with that in mind, the StylePicker is still the best option to search, audition and select their band instruments. I don't think 90% of users will initiate this type search from the Utility Tracks and as Tobin suggests, will know what RT instrument type they'll want to select from and the RT Picker PG Music uses for Utility Tracks is optimized with that purpose in mind. For the advanced searches you're wanting, they'll be available from initiating a style search from a BIAB Mixer Legacy track and the selections can be moved to a Utility Track and regenerated from there for the remainder of your BIAB session.
Since the search/audition feature exists in current Legacy Tracks, it may not be much of an issue to add it to the Utility Tracks if PG Staff see fit to do so.
Charlie, I can answer this one with ease: "Regarding the concern mentioned of aesthetics of pickers; I don't recall this concern ever being mentioned prior to this post" But I am afraid if I do, my post might get deleted. If you are interested in my point of view, here was example sketch I made: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=623604#Post623604 We can have aesthetics conversation in that thread if you wish, not to derail main topic of this one, which is using main RT picker (or clone of it) for Utility tracks. ---------------- "None of the posters seem to be aware the StylePicker Tobin accesses in the video..." "The normal picker is still available on all of the BIAB Mixer Legacy Tracks" But not for Utility Tracks!
I strongly believe a normal RT picker should be used for Utility tracks as they deal with the same real tracks, therefore the workflow in all the reason should be the same.
Aesthetics of RT Picker. - I reviewed that thread and it's a Wishlist presentation toward upgrading and improving the existing RT Picker and a different issue than a criticism to how PG staff have implemented the feature. That's a legitimate request in the proper thread. I don't have any aesthetic issues with the current RT Picker and I like your thoughts on improving it.
I also have no issue with this criticism other than it's presented as something new when it's an existing tool designed to perform how the video demonstrated it and it's only fair others should be aware of that fact. I can only speculate that PG staff used it by intention rather than accident. I see your desire to use the main RT Picker rather than a filtered RT Picker for the Utility Tracks as a Wish List item and would plus one the recommendation.
Curious to if you and others were aware and ever used any of the filtered RT Picker selections?
Charlie, As I mentioned, we can have a discussion on aesthetics in another thread. It mostly has to do with aesthetics of ergonomics.
"Curious to if you and others were aware and ever used any of the filtered RT Picker selections?"
"Filtered" picker reduces the ability of user by good 70%+ to search by/for specific instruments, tempo, feel, year of release, style, time signatures, sets. Unless there is a better alternative on horizon, main RT picker has the best ability to sort/search for items mentioned.
I hope more people will join this feedback discussion.
Have spent most of today exploring the various current version of Utility Tracks in 2021 and would agree that the full RT picker is the best option.
Like Rustyspoon I will use a style as a start point, then choose RTs using the Picker. I am aware of the other filtered pickers, but only occasionally use the Best Chording when I need an acoustic guitar.
As to the idea of using a "legacy" track then copying to Utility, that is at best a time consuming work around that should not be considered as an option. While the momentum appears to be still on for Utility Tracks now is the time to integrate them into BIAB properly (IMO that should have been done before launching, but what's new there?)
As mentioned in a thread a few months ago the RT picker and Drum picker should be combined, at the moment I see no options to generate drums into a UT.
Charlie, As I mentioned, we can have a discussion on aesthetics in another thread. It mostly has to do with aesthetics of ergonomics.
"Curious to if you and others were aware and ever used any of the filtered RT Picker selections?"
"Filtered" picker reduces the ability of user by good 70%+ to search by/for specific instruments, tempo, feel, year of release, style, time signatures, sets. Unless there is a better alternative on horizon, main RT picker has the best ability to sort/search for items mentioned.
I hope more people will join this feedback discussion.
And as I mentioned, I don't have issues with aesthetics of ergonomics and will gladly be adding my endorsement to your Wish List post shortly. Regarding your 70+% reduction of search options I think if you take another view of the video taking note of the RT Picker, it is the same as was available in 2020. I've posted a screen shot from the video showing there's No RealTrack selected and follow with a screen shot from the 2020 User manual and that shot is shown with a RealTrack selected and most of the 'missing' search items you noted are included in the filtered RT Picker.
Filtered picker is a dumbed down simplified version of the main picker and the "suggestive" sorting is of no use if you are assembling styles by yourself or your music does not rely on suggestions. No, the sortings mentioned in my post above are not there. Unless you know specifically what you are looking for your choices are greatly diminished compared to main RT picker.
Of course I tried that "filtered" picker. Why would I even start this thread if I didn't?
Regarding the new RT picker, I've put my thoughts in the below pdf file.
Like you, I rarely use present styles. I'm always getting my own combination of Realtracks. The combination of using preset filters (that you mention above) and the "Filter String" give me immense power over my ability to narrow down RTs.
Noel, In my view that is a terribly flawed concept if it is suggested to developers as a "better option" How it fits in your philosophy that a new comer would open picker and just type “sw piano 85"? I assure you this would not happen. In fact, most likely it will discourage that person to explore. Most people like to browse and choose, not mooshroom hunting.
You are basing your answer on your knowledge of program, your knowledge on track specific items, your knowledge of types of instruments etc. And that works for you. That is great. But even your avatar shows you have been around for 12+ years, and probably longer. Somebody,.I forgot who, said something like: Good technology is when you can fully use it without a manual. I am simply trying to think this in terms of "wider audience" (myself included).
Does main RT picker have issues? Sure it does, but unlike "filtered" it has a straight forward approach with many searchable and sorting ways. I see no benefit in the "new" picker, only disadvantages. If a few "filtering" options are in a way beneficial, perhaps it is a good idea to tune main picker at a later time (2022 feature #25?) to add some missing filtering capabilities. I have seen requests on the topic and I am pretty sure they were related to main RT picker. But...if the new picker stays, it might be harder at a later time to re-route it and amazing new feature of extra tracks might become yet another "performance" track item that is unpopular and hardly ever used by anyone, because it will act completely differently from everything else. Noel, think unifying, not fragmenting
Everyone of the searching items that you listed in your previous post...
Quote:
No sorting by feel No sorting by type of instrument No sorting by genre No sorting by tempo No sorting by time signatures. No Sorting by date No sorting by set
...I could accomplish in the new Realtrack picker with the exception of "Sort by date". That's something I rarely use. Given that Realtracks are numbers sequentially, though, it's easy enough to find the range of sets that apply to various release dates.
Out of curiosity, did you have a look at all the filter options available under the "#" button. I counted 38 filtering choices. That's a lot. By comparison, the original RT picker only has 16 columns for sorting.
Also, just to clarify...
When I select RTs for my songs, I don't so much "Sort by" genre, tempo, etc., as I click on the column header in the older RT picker to sort them so that I can then navigate to where I need to and "Select by" genre, tempo, instrument, etc., that I want. Then it's just one column at a time. This is clunky. The new RT picker allows for filtering of multiple options quickly and easily.
I'm not trying to be argumentative. All I'm saying is that the new RT Picker works very well for me, and allows me to do all I want to do much better than the older one. I would be saddened to lose it.
Yes, it's true. I've been on the forum for 12 years, and using BIAB a bit longer than that. I don't know if it's a good or bad thing but I do my best not to be stuck in my ways.
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