Noel, non of 2 pickers are perfect, but the main one is a more open and much easier to navigate, browse, sort, explore and audition.
And it IS the main picker. If Utility tracks become very close to legacy RT tracks, why have two different pickers? If the idea is to eventually move everyone to "filtered" picker (hopefully that is not being planned), then I rest my case. I am curious, what do you think will happen if a main RT picker would be replaced by "filtered" picker with this 2021 release?
In any case I do not think words help. Made a little collage to explain my point of view:
<< "If Utility tracks become very close to legacy RT tracks, why have two different pickers?" >>
Why? The Legacy RT tracks have the same two different pickers. Why change what's there and been there without issue?
Why, Part 2: Here's Noel's response. "The combination of using preset filters (that you mention above) and the "Filter String" give me immense power over my ability to narrow down RTs. I prefer the new version."
I use this filtered RealTrackPicker and have used it since it was introduced. I strongly prefer it not be eliminated. The filtered RealTrackPicker is an advanced search feature from the broader based Main RealTrackPicker and there are many searches that it's the right tool for the job. Your conjecture that it's only now been conceived and designed for the introduction with the Utility Track is incorrect. If you think it can stand improvement, make Wish List requests rather than post a criticism within hours of the Utility Tracks regeneration feature and asking for the filtered RealTrackPicker elimination.
Why, Part 3: The two RealTrackPickers have existed side by side for years without issue. It's not 'new' just unfamiliar to you and others. This RealTrackPicker is streamlined and focused allowing searches to progress quickly and efficiently without adding "yet another box". It's been there all along.
<< "I am curious, what do you think will happen if a main RT picker would be replaced by "filtered" picker with this 2021 release? " >>
What leads you to think that's in the works to replace the Main RealTrackPicker when again, the two RealTrackPickers have existed side by side for years without issue. Given some time and experience with it, you may find it useful too.
This RealTrackPicker currently resides seamlessly with the Main RealTrackPicker on Legacy Channels and it may be possible to extend it to the Utility Tracks as well. That's a viable Wish List request I think is productive and useful and would add my support if such a request was made.
I'm currently putting together a "How to" article on how I use the Utility track RT picker to find suitable RTs for a song. It cuts down searching time enormously from the older one so I thought I'd share my song-creating journey with other BIAB users.
I'm more than happy to agree to disagree with Rustyspoon. Different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes.
Charlie, honestly I am not sure how to take your "responses" on this topic. Very (very!) recently you personally were discouraging me and few other users from even wishing more tracks in the mixer.
"the two StylePickers have existed side by side for years without issue"
Most likely because "some" people did not see issues with the design and workflow aesthetics at that time. Perhaps there should been proper filtering options and techniques ON DEMAND, not by default, introduced to main picker? Or even perhaps a few other opinions gathered on this matter outside the think tank. ----------------------
Noel, I tried using filtered picker for few days now. It is LIMITING creative process by not having proper sorting and the way it displays things. Menus, within menus, shorthanded results. Etc. I have another idea. How about asking all these people who requested and supported idea of more mixer tracks directly? Not great many to ask. If you wish, I will gladly locate their user names. I wanted to write to you directly, about gathering opinions of people who were supporting the wish of adding more mixer tracks, but unfortunately seems you blocked all private messages.
I tried using filtered picker for few days now. It is LIMITING creative process by not having proper sorting and the way it displays things. Menus, within menus, shorthanded results. Etc. I have another idea. How about asking all these people who requested and supported idea of more mixer tracks directly? Not great many to ask. If you wish, I will gladly locate their user names. I wanted to write to you directly, about gathering opinions of people who were supporting the wish of adding more mixer tracks, but unfortunately seems you blocked all private messages.
Hi again, Misha.
Thanks for replying. I've written quite a few "How to..." thoughts on a number of things over the years. I do this when I find something interesting that works well for me and I like to pass on my understanding and techniques to others. Whether or not people agree with me doesn't matter at all, so there's no point in gathering opinions if you are wanting to change my mind. As I see it, you and I have different views on Realband and now on this Utility RT Picker as well. That's fine.
If I was in your position where I preferred the original RT picker, what I'd be doing is to use that to find what I want and then, when I've settled on a track, move that track to a Utility track. This frees up one of BIAB's original tracks for more tracks to found and added.
Noel, this is one of the issues that I see over and over again here. People are tired of "workarounds" They do not want workarounds. They want something that works. And hopefully works well. We have a picker for selecting Real tracks, that has proper sorting. That what people are using to select RTs. Maybe not as "filtered" as the one introduced for utility track, but much easier to navigate and find what you are looking for. What I am afraid of that this decision of RealTrack picker discrepancy was either sporadic or as a result of opinions of few people that wanted "their way" instead of having a discussion with those people who fought for this wish in the first place.
To make my point have "some weight" I will tell you this. In the past 15 years, I worked close with small databases which are between 2x-10x the amount of RealTracks available. Items of which are unique and have an average of 10 sorting values. If we were talking roughly about 50,000 Real Tracks, your "strokes for folks" choice of picker, would have more advantages for most users. As it stands, the amount of RealTracks is fairly small and there is absolutely no need to filter the hell out of them. Things got to come together (streamline) for BIAB, not wonder away in different directions.
So we might have a different opinions. That is fine. What about new users, do you think they would prefer: 2 different pickers or one, single picker for same task of selecting real tracks? All you have to do is imagine yourself a freshly baked new owner of BIAB, and give your honest answer. Not from the heights of your knowledge. Think like a kid.
The "big" RT Picker dialog cannot currently be used for Utility track RT generation like the "Choose Best RealTracks" dialog can. We do plan to develop this feature further (RT generation on Utility tracks) in upcoming builds.
We do plan to develop this feature further (RT generation on Utility tracks) in upcoming builds.
Andrew, Thank You for sharing this peek at upcoming improvements! I know it is always risky sharing plans with users because if something doesn't go as expected we may be disappointed/upset. BUT, I can't tell you how good it feels to hear something directly from you indicating you are working on an improvement like this! Personally I would welcome more of this "pulling back the curtain"!
BTW, I've already ordered my upgrade to 2021...just like every year since I arrived here in 2012!
After JJJ post, I felt like my response to Andrew might seem rude. A "smiley" was just a sign of relief.
+1 (A BIG ONE) to JJJ post and Andrew, thank you!
Those extra mixer tracks mean a lot to me. They will help build richer and stronger arrangements, can be used to build separate song parts and so much more. I just want these to be done right way with streamlined, consistent way you would use them... even if it takes some time.
<< Charlie, honestly I am not sure how to take your "responses" on this topic. Very (very!) recently you personally were discouraging me and few other users from even wishing more tracks in the mixer. >>
Misha, it's my hope that you'll take any responses I've made in the past and will make in the future as being presented with respect and good intentions. From your post comments, it's my impression you thought the Utility Picker was new and it's not. To me, that is a separate issue from you and others suggesting improvements and changes for the betterment of the picker or to use the main RT Picker.
This conversation has drifted between those two elements making points not always clear. We've all learned the Utility Picker situation is technical and not aesthetics or ergonomics but with that, I know you've offered suggestions to improve the Main RT Picker. That's great and I support your efforts. My responses in this thread were prompted by my impression you and others were unaware the Utility Picker existed prior to the introduction of the regeneration feature of Utility Tracks and never intended to discourage suggestions to improve the picker or the RT process.
It's exactly the same issue with the Wish List request for more tracks in the BIAB Mixer. I never had any intent to discourage the request but in fact endorsed the request across several threads on the subject over time. I benefit the same as everyone with available tracks. My concern with additional tracks was solely it was universally presented to read that BIAB could not provide additional tracks which was a misrepresentation of the program and likely misleading thousands of forum post readers. I never thought that was intentional on your and others request, more likely just unfamiliarity and lack of experience with features and techniques with the BIAB software.
People that primarily or exclusively use BIAB as an accompaniment tool to create Karaoke or backing tracks to play along with are led to believe there are very restrictive limitations to the BIAB program. Every post made by accompaniment users for ways to bypass these limitations, (limitations which are perceived and not real ), are told more tracks are required and the only solution is to move tracks to a DAW. In 2019 and 2020, PG staff made significant enhancements to some of these features and from what I've seen in forum posts and User Showcase comments, these enhancements are not widely known or used so far. For years prior to the release of the 2021 version of BIAB, each BIAB RealTrack can accommodate the original instrument plus 10 more for a total instrument count of 11 RealTrack instruments. RealTracks can reside on any of the seven legacy tracks so a total of 77 instruments can be programmed to play consecutively or simultaneously in a single, first generation render. The addition of the new Utility Tracks mathematically increases the total instrument count of a first generation BIAB song project to over 1,300! I have no idea whether the software or Windows have a brick wall track limitation but if it's less than this minimum, BIAB can do it. If you and others knew of this BIAB capability, you never mentioned it.
Finally, here's a real example of what I mean about unfamiliarity: A new user made is first post on 12/5 with a simple request to change his song tempo for a single measure without hard-coding the song global tempo. The user was aware of bar settings and using F5 to access changing the tempo but explains why that doesn't meet his future needs for the song and possible re-rendering. He received correct answers from two forum members that have been BIAB users for decades. One answered No, BIAB can't do that in a project and the second answer was to complete the task easily in a DAW. Both of those answers are correct, but incomplete. BIAB can do exactly what the new user is requesting In BIAB without closing the current project or exporting any tracks to a DAW. I was able to accomplish his desired task in no more than a minute using the Song Medley feature and advised the new user of its existence and steps to complete his task.
"we've all learned the Utility Picker situation is technical and not aesthetics or ergonomics"
Ohh sure it is about aesthetics, ergonomics, sort capability and consistency of workflow. As I understood and hoping it is just a temporary fix until U.Tracks are developed to a proper level. That I can live with.
About this: "limitations which are perceived and not real" "If you and others knew of this BIAB capability, you never mentioned it." I tried your way same day you offered that "workaround" and I found it complex, counter intuitive, clunky, time consuming, technically outdated and I can go on...
I am working full time. I do my music things mainly in short 10-20 minute breaks during the day and maybe 2-4 hours on the weekends. Streamlined workflow mean a world to me. Digging at workarounds is not a desired solution. I think my generation will work right until undertaker rings a doorbell, so playtime is very precious. -----------------------------------------------------
I think the elephant in the room is this. Many long time users know their way around the software. Some of these ways are obsolete. Not the functions that software offers, but the means on how those functions are achieved....through workarounds. It is obvious that PG team tries to accommodate loyal followers and that is perfectly understandable. However I find absurd resisting valid requests. Hopefully common ground is found without unnecessary tensions. Most of us are alive, and that's what matters the most, right?
...Time for a short BIAB session. Good night.
P.S. JJJ made an excellent point on some level of transparency.
Charlie, first let me say I really appreciate you sharing your deep knowledge and work-arounds. Same way I feel about Pipeline and his genius has saved my bacon more than once!
BUT, these complex work-arounds are NOT a solution to poorly designed and implemented software. They are a band-aid and as Rustyspoon correctly observed they are often "complex, counter intuitive, clunky, time consuming, technically outdated".
Don't get me wrong, they have their place and are GREATLY APPRECIATED!
BUT they are NOT a substitute for fixing the software.
As an example, I used to code complex apps using Visual Basic. And I was pretty good at it! But occasionally I would hit a wall. A friend and fellow programmer would always remind me that I could "easily" drop into C++ or even assembler to do what I needed to do. And I have no doubt he could have done that. But I couldn't. And even if I could, I preferred to work in at the level where I was proficient rather than deep diving into an unknown area I would never have the need nor time to excel at.
The same thing applies with BIAB. Before 2021 there were 7 tracks available (not including audio). That's it! End of story. 7 tracks.
Yet you claim there are actually 77 tracks? Well, where are they? Can I see them at a glance in the mixer? Can I adjust all parameters of them individually in the mixer like I can the 7 visible tracks? Are they as intuitively obvious in their settings and status that I can, at a glance, see and adjust them?
I think the simple answer to all of these questions is "No"! And this is proven out as you acknowledge most BIAB users do not even know about them. Because they are hidden and/or counter-intuitive.
Let me repeat...I am honestly grateful for you sharing your expertise and work-arounds and we are fortunate to have you here doing that. But when someone requests that the mixer be expanded I just wish power users like you would give it a +1 and maybe add there is a work-around available instead of implying that this request has already been fulfilled.
"we've all learned the Utility Picker situation is technical and not aesthetics or ergonomics" Ohh sure it is about aesthetics, ergonomics, sort capability and consistency of workflow. As I understood and hoping it is just a temporary fix until U.Tracks are developed to a proper level. That I can live with. We're good. PG Staff is on this and it's likely we'll be getting the Main Picker. You missed it in one of my comments but I mentioned I looked at other tutorials and they all used the Main Picker and not the Filtered Picker which I thought was odd.
About this: "limitations which are perceived and not real" "If you and others knew of this BIAB capability, you never mentioned it." I tried your way same day you offered that "workaround" and I found it complex, counter intuitive, clunky, time consuming, technically outdated and I can go on...
Here, you are talking about a different "workaround" than the two I mention in this post. we've never discussed the Song Medley nor the RealTrack Medley in detail. The RealTrack Medley I will discuss in further detail replying to JJJ's post he's made here in this thread. In fact, some great enhancements were made in both 2019 and 2020. And, as noted, you never mentioned it... Neither of the Medley features are complex, counter intuitive, clunky, time consuming or technically outdated. It is true however these features are capable of providing users with complex, advanced song arrangements that many users are unaware the program can produce and thought only achievable using external DAW software.
I'm not sure which other "workaround" you found so difficult but it seems to me to be a perfect fit for further questions and discussion in another thread in order to develop recommendations and Wish List items for improvement and we're missing a great opportunity to help PG staff streamline, modernize, fix GUI's, make BIAB better and more intuitive. I think that yes, this "workaround" is a good process to explore further. It could have possibly been beneficial had you mentioned it, questioned the process and used the techniques more so PG staff would be prompted to look into it further. They do listen - and that includes they listen to you...
I think the elephant in the room is this. Many long time users know their way around the software. Which is proof positive that one is never too old to learn. I estimate my knowledge base to learn most of what I know about BIAB to be the equivalent of a day. By a day, I'm defining as 8-10 working hours. Most features, workarounds, processes and techniques can be familiarized in just a few minutes - Many PG Music tutorials are only 1-8 minutes in length including demonstrations... and can be proofed in an additional few minutes of practice and use.
Some of these ways are obsolete. Not the functions that software offers, but the means on how those functions are achieved....through workarounds. Features and techniques you define as "workarounds" normally turn out to be unadvertised tasks BIAB is capable of doing that users move to a DAW and haven't taken time to learn that BIAB has the capability. Their workflow has always included creating tracks in BIAB and quickly moving the tracks to their DAW of choice. There's simply been no reason in their mind to look further. My opinion is just because you can't do it in BIAB doesn't mean BIAB can't do it. The myth BIAB can't do a task is then repeated here in the forum repeatedly and incomplete knowledge and lack of familiarity with a feature by long time users spreads until the myth is accepted as truth.
It is obvious that PG team tries to accommodate loyal followers and that is perfectly understandable. However I find absurd resisting valid requests. Hopefully common ground is found without unnecessary tensions. Most of us are alive, and that's what matters the most, right?
It is. I'm sure PG Team tries to accommodate ALL followers as best they can.
Charlie, Lets agree on one thing. PG team added all these channels, and as it was mentioned the plan is to make them work as RTs and that is amazing!
"Which is proof positive that one is never too old to learn." So my philosophy is, for someone like you, who knows complex ways it should be extremely easy to adopt to the streamlined way.
"Most features, workarounds, processes and techniques can be familiarized in just a few minutes" Charlie, my respects to you. I am not built like that. I hope that I am a minority.
Charlie, first let me say I really appreciate you sharing your deep knowledge and work-arounds. Same way I feel about Pipeline and his genius has saved my bacon more than once! Thank You.
BUT, these complex work-arounds are NOT a solution to poorly designed and implemented software. They are a band-aid and as Rustyspoon correctly observed they are often "complex, counter intuitive, clunky, time consuming, technically outdated". I completely disagree. Unless you have a very different view of what the words "complex, counter intuitive, clunky, time consuming, technically outdated" are than me, you've bought into the BIAB isn't a multi track recorder and DAW myth. Second, the RealTrack Medley featured was reworked, enhanced and updated in 2019 and 2020 and your statement implies you lack experience using the feature.
Don't get me wrong, they have their place and are GREATLY APPRECIATED! Yes they do.
BUT they are NOT a substitute for fixing the software. No problem. The software isn't broken. The BIAB tools you choose to not use for a certain task doesn't mean BIAB isn't capable of doing the task. It simply means you have chosen not to do that task using BIAB.
As an example, I used to code complex apps using Visual Basic. And I was pretty good at it! But occasionally I would hit a wall. A friend and fellow programmer would always remind me that I could "easily" drop into C++ or even assembler to do what I needed to do. And I have no doubt he could have done that. But I couldn't. And even if I could, I preferred to work in at the level where I was proficient rather than deep diving into an unknown area I would never have the need nor time to excel at. Interesting information but irrelevant other than it validates my point above that you intentionally choose not to do certain tasks BIAB is capable of completing within the program but use methods you're more familiar and comfortable with.
The same thing applies with BIAB. Before 2021 there were 7 tracks available (not including audio). That's it! End of story. 7 tracks. Not true. Each of those tracks had an additional 10 track sub-mixer.
Yet you claim there are actually 77 tracks? Well, where are they? Can I see them at a glance in the mixer? Can I adjust all parameters of them individually in the mixer like I can the 7 visible tracks? Are they as intuitively obvious in their settings and status that I can, at a glance, see and adjust them? Yes to each of your questions above. First and foremost, 70 additional tracks is NOT my claim but is an existing RealTrack feature that precedes my first purchase of a BIAB product. Dr. Gannon has personally posted the fact there's the additional 70 tracks per BIAB Legacy Channel. So, regardless that I'm the only person you and others are aware that has posted about the fact, there's indisputably been 70 tracks accessible for every BIAB Legacy RealTrack Mixer track for years. They're accessed through the RealTrack Picker. Each Sub-Mixer is visible for the selected track. All of the normal Legacy controls remain intact for the selected BIAB Mixer Channel and each of the additional 10 sub-mixer tracks have their own volume and panning sliders. They each individually have the same visibility and intuitive settings and status so it's easy to see and adjust them.
I think the simple answer to all of these questions is "No"! And this is proven out as you acknowledge most BIAB users do not even know about them. Because they are hidden and/or counter-intuitive. The only answer is Yes. Sadly the proof that I allege most BIAB users don't know of this feature is not because they're hidden or counter-intuitive but rather users chose to overlook them in 2019, 2020 and 2021 when they were discussed, advertised, demonstrated and explained by PG Music with multiple video demonstrations and tutorials when each of those years were introduced. I have no interest to speculate to how or why such widespread dismissal of these obvious features that are introduced, marketed and claimed as BIAB features and not "workarounds" occurred.
Let me repeat...I am honestly grateful for you sharing your expertise and work-arounds and we are fortunate to have you here doing that. But when someone requests that the mixer be expanded I just wish power users like you would give it a +1 and maybe add there is a work-around available instead of implying that this request has already been fulfilled. I endorsed others request for additional tracks multiple times across multiple threads. I never had the need to request it myself but just as everyone else, I'm benefiting greatly from this new feature and honestly, it's exceeded my expectations by a huge amount. My implication this request has been fulfilled was due to extensive remarks rejecting the feature of RealTrack Medleys.
Charlie, Lets agree on one thing. PG team added all these channels, and as it was mentioned the plan is to make them work as RTs and that is amazing! I agree completely on all counts.
"Which is proof positive that one is never too old to learn." So my philosophy is, for someone like you, who knows complex ways it should be extremely easy to adopt to the streamlined way. It is extremely easy in most situations. I'm very adaptive to both streamlined procedures and complex ones. I'm always learning something new and to be honest, I follow you, Pipeline, JJJ, justanoldmuso, and many others closely and I'm constantly expanding my BIAB knowledge following your and others observations and suggestions.
"Most features, workarounds, processes and techniques can be familiarized in just a few minutes" Charlie, my respects to you. I am not built like that. I hope that I am a minority. I'm totally convinced you are considerably more intuitive than you suggest and it's likely your limited time and busy schedule have more impact than any internal limitation. . It's a fact though that most BIAB tutorials seem to me to be quite short to be tutorials with demonstrations included.
Every December it is like this. All these changes occurring one week after the new product launch. Are these changes by design or are they really in response to users feedback in the past week? I ...
You have the few days of actual beta testing then you have the 1-2 months of public beta testing and development. When I first saw that picker some time back in another dialog, I thought that looks good maybe the BB Plugin could use that, but then I saw it had no sort columns, so thought no.
I suggested a Multi Picker for the BB Plugin and Rusty suggested the same for Biab, I think that will be the way to go then you could generate RT RD MIDI SMT UT or Loop in one click on the Utility tracks. That might be a better next step in the public beta testing/development ?
beatmaster, It is just an illusion You are forgetting that BIAB is only a part of the deal, you also get ton of creative content. Also, if I am not mistaken, cross-grading is more money than yearly upgrades. Ohh almost forgot, support development!
P.S. Even in this early stage Utility Tracks are very useful! Even if no Real Tracks were a part of this 2021 update, I would upgraded just for these. But that's me.
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Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
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