PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Clueless Inquiry on BiaB Capabilities

Gordon and App.

METHOD A.

Not trying to be a 'smarty but MIDI SUCCESS gordon.

steps…(its fiddly)..NOTE not a audio clik…midi clik cow bell triggering pg sfz plug in.

1..outside of bb i created same midi note 1 2 3 4 for x bars triggering sforzando plug in.
and tested.

2..i then imported cow bell midi into bb to a utility trak with pg sfz plug in used. and sfz jazz kit triggered by the midi notes.
i panned cow bell left and music right. NO LEAKAGE from cow bell.

3..genned of course on playback midi cowbell played first 4 bars i set up alone on left side.
then music comes in at 5th bar on etc …on right. left has cowbell , right has music no cowbell.

ps can change tempo or key change.
cowbell and music obviously change with tempo change to new tempo.
but sound of cowbell dont change with tempo or chord change.
success !

notes.
1..you can have cowbell (or another midi triggered sound) not play once music comes in gordon as an option via editing of course.
2..i could have used bb piano roll..if i wished. (i really wish there was a bars view like in realband….i miss it in bb).

i dont think ive missed anything and HTH.

bottom line midi clik cow bell triggering on left and
all music on right channel. phew.
i think this meets his needs.

if wife n' i ever get back to blighty a pint ? lol.
--------------------------------------------------

METHOD B.

1..open realband. (rb) (note rb has bars view that is useful for editing.)
2..load in METRNM1 style.
generate midi clik on trak 1
3..export midi trak from rb to biab utility trak.
so now bb utility trak has midi clik.
4..load up sfzorando (jazz kit) on utility trak and using bb piano roll can get loads of different clik sounds eg ride//block//whatever.
5..as before pan clik left and music all right.

NOTE …i had a really 'wacky' interesting fun clik trak by using various utility traks…each one with different sound triggered by midi etc etc.

hth…

now wifey is telling me its late n gotta watch 'everything goes wrong show' on pbs..a hoot sortas like monty python ..then its sleeps…lol.


happiness.

om

That's pretty much where we started until someone sensibly mentioned the metronome tracks, which are MIDI.

Perhaps there's something odd about the way BiaB handles specifically the metronome tracks. I note that they seem to already include a count-in, which may make them 'special' (flawed).

For appoggiature:

"Load up sforzando" ... on the mixer choose the "plugins" tab, click on the descriptive text, which probably says "->default synth", "choose plugin", "<VSTi Plogue .... sforzando".

Oh yes ... I guess this would now want the count-in bars added at the front and xml/MIDI imported two bars later.

You guys are sure working hard. Here is how you put the click on a track in Reaper. Best I can tell that is what you are trying to do. I suspect it is just as simple in any other DAW. But of course we all know that BIAB is not a .....

[video:youtube]https://www.google.com/search?q=record+c...IptQP6_-uqAM_43[/video]

Gordon n' Music Student.

its fiddly any way one slices it imho to meet app's needs.. ive tried many ways.

going back to powertraks (before getting into biab/rb) that i started on years ago i always did my own metronomes.includeing any other music software i used in the past.
i always ignored the built in metronomes. cos then i could move my own custom ones around tween different software i might be using and thus as the commonality was the custom metronome…it made things easier i found.


these days i either build my own metronome in either reaps (yep using clik trak//samples..
and other ways in reaps or realband.).

i gave apps' need a good old college try..lol.

as i said it works here with the panning. its just 'fiddly' to get there.

(ps sometimes i just load/insert the clik trak in reaps onto a reaps trak and replace the clik with audio sample(s) etc.)

best

om.

What is a shame, at least in my eyes is there isn't a simple way to do the one and only thing I HOPED Band in a Box ALONE was capable of before I purchased it. I don't know if I would have NOT taken the plunge had I realized it wasn't easy as I hoped (along with discovering other inconsistencies with MusicXML importation), but regardless I am disappointed.

While many BiaB users may not desire what I am after, I know I am not alone in the world of backing track users in needing tracks with a metronome click on one channel only. You only need to see all of the videos out there on how to do it with a DAW to confirm what I am saying.

I am also having crashing issues with RealBand so I haven't investigated if bringing my BB files into it and creating a separate channel click track in RealBand is an option....

Regardless, I appreciate all of the time and effort members of the Forum have expended to try and help me because I am NOT one of those people who likes to take the easy way out and ask a lot of "how-to" questions on forums. Instead I seek the answers myself and only cry for help when necessary. However, Internet searches for answers to my BiaB questions most often were outdated, not relevant or left me more confused. The PGM Support Chat wasn't of much help either.

However, I am extremely appreciative that the Forum members at least taught this thick headed newbie how to create a BiaB audio file rendered as a single channel.

So after a Popeye "that's all I can stands... I can't stands no more!" moment; I discovered that with a few clicks, I can bring that BiaB rendered single channel audio file into Audacity, generate my count-in and click track on a separate channel and export what I am after in a minute or two...

...AND I didn't have to spend any additional funds for a DAW!!

Not what I wanted to have to do, but a LOT less aggravation than trying to get BiaB to do something it apparently can't do as easily.

So in the meantime, this is the way I am going to get what I need from BiaB so I can at least use it and have some chance of completing this backing track project by the end of October and hopefully making some money from my efforts in December.

I hope at some point, the issue with the BiaB MIDI Metronome Styles not working in mono is resolved because that would be perfect and make my whole process even easier. But with a work around, I can wait to see if that happens.

Once again, thank you ALL for all of the help. It IS appreciated!!

I'll be around...

Cheers,


Nick

I've read through all of posts of this thread to try and get an idea why there was such an issue with using Midi Metronome or ClickTrk Style in BIAB.

The issue seems to be the click track and the accompaniment track are in stereo and need to be converted to mono.

The good news for those who may wish to give it a try, it's super easy and fast to do in BIAB with just a few clicks. BIAB has a button designated expressly to do it.

Here's how to create the Midi stereo click file and convert it into mono using BIAB:

Create and save the current project
Load a MIDI Metronome or the ClickTrk.Sty Style into BIAB set the tempo to desired bpm.
Rt. click on the drums track and from the drop down menu
Click on Track Actions and from the drop down menu
Select - Save Track as Performance File (Wav/M4a)

This action quickly converts the midi click track into a audio file and saves it into the same folder where the project SGU file has been saved to. In addition, when the play or generate button is pressed, the drums track labels turn orange and the track is renamed to Artist, indicating the track now contains an audio Artist Performance file. Select the Drums Track on the Mixer and then press the Audio Editor Icon to open the Audio Editor and the click track is now a visible stereo wave form on the Drums Track in the Audio Editor.

To Convert the Stereo wav form to Mono:

Open the Audio Editor and be sure the Drums Track is selected and click wav form is visible
Click the Editor Button and from the Drop down menu
Select Convert Channels - and from the Window Dialog window that opens
The defaults are set for each channel at 50 - Keep these defaults and
Click OK and the stereo track is converted to mono at the 50/50 ratio.

At this point, I recommend to also click the Edit Button and select Normalize and normalize the mono track -3 or -6 db.

The Click Track is now Mono.

To move the Artist Performance File from the Drums Track to another Mixer Track and return the Drums Track to normal use:
with the Drums Track selected
Edit |Copy Special| Copy Move
In the Copy Move Dialog Window
Unselect all Midi channels
Set the MIDI Box to Do Nothing
Set the Audio Box to Copy to destination track
Select the desired new track to copy the Artist Performance File audio to re: Utility Track #1

Charlie:

I tried this method, set up a metronome and/or use clktrack as a style and get nowhere...

Try as I might, this step: "Select - Save Track as Performance File (Wav/M4a)" does nothing and NONE of this happens:

"This action quickly converts the midi click track into a audio file and saves it into the same folder where the project SGU file has been saved to. In addition, when the play or generate button is pressed, the drums track labels turn orange and the track is renamed to Artist, indicating the track now contains an audio Artist Performance file. Select the Drums Track on the Mixer and then press the Audio Editor Icon to open the Audio Editor and the click track is now a visible stereo wave form on the Drums Track in the Audio Editor."

And when I view the track in the Audio Editor, there is no visible audio there, yet I can hear the click when I press the play button...

Originally Posted By: Appoggiatura

Charlie:

I tried this method, set up a metronome and/or use clktrack as a style and get nowhere...

Try as I might, this step: "Select - Save Track as Performance File (Wav/M4a)" does nothing and NONE of this happens:

"This action quickly converts the midi click track into a audio file and saves it into the same folder where the project SGU file has been saved to. In addition, when the play or generate button is pressed, the drums track labels turn orange and the track is renamed to Artist, indicating the track now contains an audio Artist Performance file. Select the Drums Track on the Mixer and then press the Audio Editor Icon to open the Audio Editor and the click track is now a visible stereo wave form on the Drums Track in the Audio Editor."

And when I view the track in the Audio Editor, there is no visible audio there, yet I can hear the click when I press the play button...

The wav file will be visible in the Audio Editor once the Artist Performance File has been created. The click is still audible because the track still has midi data active and also if the Performance File has been created because the midi track and Artist Performance Track will be synced and play doubled. My post indicated the click data to be on the Drums Track. That should be the case but just be sure to select the track that has the click midi data.

The Artist Performance Track feature has been around since at least 2015 for PC and Mac and is a rock solid feature and there's no bug that I'm aware of. Any media on a track can be converted to an Artist Performance File. It works with MIDI, SuperMidi, recorded audio and RealTracks and RealDrums. If you're hearing the click track, it should be possible to convert it to an Artist Performance File.

Some things to look for that may be the cause of your issue:

The SGU project must be saved before the Artist Performance File feature will activate. The normal procedure is for BIAB to give a prompt message advising to save the project if your project hasn't been saved. BIAB renders, names and saves the Artist Performance File audio in the same folder as the project. This action causes BIAB to load the audio track automatically whenever the project is opened.

The Artist Performance Track appears once the BIAB project's Play or Generate and Play buttons have been clicked on. The track color and labels change requires the song regeneration to activate. Be sure the Audio Editor is displaying the correct track the click data is on. The Audio Editor defaults to displaying the Melody Track when it's opened unless you've highlighted the correct track first in the Mixer.

If none of the above corrects the issue, list the steps you take and post them here and we can diagnose what's occurring or do a Return To Factory Settings option that's located in the Options Menu.

I can't think of a reason that right click on the track with the Click on it and selecting Track Actions, Save Track as Performance File should not be working. I tested the steps I detailed here on my system and all seems to be working..

Appoggiatura,

Did you generate the tracks and then right click in the audio mixer where the instrument name is located to bring up the track pop up menu?

I can't tell you the number of times I've been so focused on performing a task that I've forgotten to generate tracks before performing the task.

Here is a real time video showing how to create a click track for any BIAB song, convert the click from stereo to mono, move the track to a Utility Track and render an Mp3 with accompaniment on one track and the click track on the other.

There's no narration, just the demonstration.

EDIT: Link updated to YouTube upload

YouTube - BIAB Click Track Video

Fantastic effort Charlie. Many thanks.
Perhaps a good one for the tips and tricks section also? This is worthy of its own title.

Thanks for the suggestion. I uploaded the video to YouTube so it could be a permanent link and posted it in the Tips and Tricks Forum.

Tips and Tricks Link

I couldn't find the clictrk.sty file after searching hard, but I have some metronome*.sty files. Run the demo with it and it worked. If someone can tell me where to find this clictrk.sty, thanks in advance.

It's found deeply embedded in an earlier post in this thread:

Clictrk.sty Link

Ah yes that one had escaped me, thank you very much!

Charlie:

Thanks SO much for the instructions & video!!

That method works although while looking to resolve another real or perceived issue, I may have come across another way that may get similar results.

(My apologies for the novella that follows):

During some experimentation converting the generated click-track to mono using your method from the "Audio Edit" view (Edit>Convert Channels>Convert Stereo to Mono), I discovered that the OTHER tracks were still stereo and couldn’t be converted using this method.

However, if I pressed F7 taking me to the “Track Settings and Actions” window and highlighted a stereo track; if I checked the box “Editable Audio,” I could then convert the channel to mono via the "Audio Edit" view.

This action turned the track ORANGE like your method (Track Actions> Save Track as Performance File (Wav/M4a) without having to save the file first.

So, I did another experiment and revisited the click-track method Gordon introduced me to back on Page 2 of this thread. That method was to pick a "Utility Track", right click and choose “Select a custom MIDI Style for this Track” from the same right click drop down menu. In my previous experiments I chose Metronome 1.

While yielding a suitable click-track, the problem we had was even with hard panning, the resulting click was stereo despite appearing to be on one channel only of the rendered MP3.

With no disrespect intended, this stereo/bleed through result also confirmed my suspicion of the inaccuracy of the suggestion that mono conversion of Mixer channels was achieved via the “Mono” check box on the “Notation” view screen. To me, this result implies the "Mono" check box has nothing at all to do with how an audio file is rendered.

But what do I know...?

Ignoring the previous "mono method"...

Instead, after following the same steps choosing a custom MIDI Style, selecting the Drums Track, etc.; I went to this MIDI Utility Track via F7, checked the “Editable Audio” box and what I previously thought couldn’t be converted to mono… could.

So after all of this bloviating, I assume my "orange" result is the same as the "Charlie" method using a "Performance File?"

If so, this bring me to another real or perceived issue…

To refresh the memory of anyone still awake and interested, the result I am after is a rendered two channel MP3 with the click track on one channel and the accompaniment on the other with NO bleed through.

In a test, I rendered an MP3 from a created BiaB file with center panning. After enlarging the resulting channels and looking closely at the waveform on the two tracks, to my uninitiated eye they are NOT the same. There appear to be subtle differences that to my pea brain indicates a stereo rendering.

That leads me to believe that simple hard panning those instrument tracks left while panning the click track right would result in a loss of some of the overall audio on the left track.

When I compare that test MP3 to another test MP3 with hard panning of the instruments channels to one side, listening to each separately my ears are telling me I am losing some of the highs from at least one of the instruments in my mix on the hard panned MP3.

Am I correct in this assumption or are my eyes & ears playing tricks on me??

If so, is there some OTHER method in BiaB to achieve true mono on those instrument channels before hard panning and rendering an audio file other than individually making each track “editable” and converting the individual channels to mono via the "Audio Edit" view? While this method works, it adds several other steps to the process.

I’ve also experimented with creating the mix, rendering it as a single track mono MP3 via the "Audio Export" function (which I assume combines the channels) and importing it back into my song as a mono utility track.

This method seems to be a little less cumbersome once I get used to the steps involved.

Am I finally getting close?

Thanks again Charlie, Gordon and everyone else!!!!

If you have a windows machine, just open the file in Realband and pan the desired tracks to the desired output .. no bleed or confusion, as long as the Click isn't being generated by the metronome and exists on an actual track.

I hesitated to get into this thread earlier because I wanted to see the BiaB solution suggestions, but I suspect BiaB, with its built in reverb etc is going to have *some bleed .. though I am still hoping to be proven wrong.

FWIW many of us here simply move to RB for this type of work since it seems to be much simpler .. as long as you are on Windows, as Mac doesn't include RB and I haven't scoured back to check your version/OS.

I'm glad things are working for you.

Regarding crosstalk (bleeding between channels) you're correct about it with BIAB. BIAB always renders a stereo which in the case of dual mono results in merging the two tracks to achieve a mono output.

However, the click track and accompaniment track can be generated separately so each track is a complete mono audio file that can be compiled either in BIAB or in a DAW or audio editor. Then with proper routing of the file into a mixer or dual channel PA, sending each mono channel to a discreet and different amplifier output there should not be any crosstalk like the example from Rharv with using RealBand. In short, creating the tracks using BIAB can make a true dual mono file but as you discovered, there are additional steps to ensure there's not any merging of the files when rendering.

Charlie

I'm glad it worked out OK and sorry that it was harder and more frustrating than I (we?) anticipated. I haven't yet heard any more about the panning flaw of the metronome MIDI styles on Utility tracks.