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eddie1261
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eddie1261
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Even on Lukenbach Texas Waylon sings "Let's go to" that serves as a pickup on the "+ 4 +" at the end of that half spoken intro. Everything has a countdown. Whether it's click track or spoken, there's a countdown. It's done in studios but not on a track that is recorded. I have seen big band shows where the band leader gives 4 whole measures of countdown. When I played in swing band shows in college we got a double countoff. Try to play One O'Clock Jump without a good handle on the tempo. LOL!
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 271
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
Well, as I see it, you have a few options.
1. Everybody in on ONE. Yes, good musicians can and do start at the same time on the 1. That's kind of the default way to do it. Absolutely nothing wrong with that kind of start. There might be a couple of milliseconds difference in the actual hit on one, but not enough for anyone to notice.
2. Pick up notes. You hear this all the time too. In country..."and a 4 and" is an accepted way to kick off a song. The pick up can be the fiddles, steel, guitar, drums, and quite often, all of them combined. Yes... this is what I'm referring to. Especially the "couple of milliseconds difference" part. This is, and it's only my opinion, why a live band has a looser sound or feel than a machine band which is usually tightly quantized. I'm not saying that it makes any difference to the human ear per se... I think that it just makes for a looser sound all around. I don't mean that in a bad way. I don't mean that the band is terrible because they're all out of time. I just think it's a "human" thing. Humans can't quantize quite as tight as how a computer can. But as you say, we're talking milliseconds. Nobody in the bar is going to tell you that the band is no good because of this, just because they can't hear it. Neither can the band members. And of course, 99% of the time there are count ins and most always there are pickup notes that kick off the song. I like your reference to country music. Classic country and old rock and roll paid my bills for a LOT of years.  Like a lot of people here, once I have the main framework of my song done in biab it is promptly dropped into my daw and I go from there. A lot of the time I end up using just the bass and drums but there are also times where I may like the rhythm guitars or piano or background peddle steel. It is in my daw where the pickup notes are inserted and that takes the "every instrument starting at the exact same time" syndrome out of play. Especially when those pickup notes aren't quantized. Same goes for the middle solo and ending. I really didn't mean for my post to sound like it was a problem I was having with this. It just kind of struck me as I was sitting back listening to my song play in biab. It was just a muse. But the post sure has started some great conversation. I love this place!!! Bobby
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,384
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Joined: Jul 2000
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That’s good we now know better what the situation is. What is your reaction to my observation that the guitar intentionally comes in early in the jazz styles? In other words, BIAB clearly does not need to have all instruments start together.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,617
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Joined: Jan 2015
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There are several timing things that can go on, particularly with live music.
It's pretty common to use a pick-up into a chorus, swing and syncopation, ahead of the beat to give drive, behind the beat to give a more relaxed feel and that looseness bobby writes about that gives a natural feel to things.
For me personally, dead on the beat sounds robotic.
But there also has to be a consistency within the band. We need the beat timing even if we're going to play fast and loose with it.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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eddie1261
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eddie1261
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I think this may have been better stated by saying every PART starting at the same time than every NOTE. I am a stickler for timing and tuning and won't have those 2 things any way but perfect.
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