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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 6
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Newbie
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 6 |
Hello to All! This is my first post--I've been a BIAB owner for more than ten years but previously just used it at a very superficial level as a practice tool for my jazz improv. I'm now ramping things up and using it for (hopefully) pro-sounding recordings, relying heavily on RealTracks and RealDrums. I'm amazed at the quality of sound I can now get and am excited about exploring the depths of the program which seem vast.
On to my first question: I'm recording a song where I let BIAB do what it wants in the rhythm section for most of the song, but there are certain sections where I want specific chords, rhythms, and bass notes. I know that if I go the all-MIDI route I can just save as a MIDI file, export to my DAW (Sonar), and continue massaging it there. But if I want to use all RealTracks, I'm stumped. Is this possible? I tried creating a style and recording the piano part as a pattern, but when I play it back, the rhythm is correct but the voicing is not. This won't suffice. Would RealBand help out with this? I don't know much about it.
Thanks in advance for your help. If you have any general tips about achieving high-quality jazz tracks, I'd love to hear them. And if you have any samples online in the acoustic jazz style, I'd be very interested to check them out.
--Vinnie
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,616
Expert
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Expert
Joined: May 2007
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Aside from the chords, there is little you can do about RealTracks or RealDrums. They are audio recordings of a bunch of different phrases from which BIAB and RealBand builds from. For example, if you want an arpeggio in a particular place, you can't specify it. You may be able to find it within the audio tracks but sounds like a lot of work to me. The RealDrums are the biggest leap (for me). No more 'midi sounding' drums. There are a few things you can do such as trading 4s and shots.
Bottom line is if you want a customized song with RealTracks and RealDrums, you will probably have much difficulty. RealBand is you best bet. You may want to listen to the RealTracks and RealDrum files. That will give you a good idea of what you have to work with. They are found in your BB directory under the Drums and RealTracks folders. They are .wma files and can be played in most audio players or imported into a DAW.
Good luck,
R
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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You can only go so far with achieving exact voicings, inversions etc. Biab is midi based but all the new Real Tracks/Drums have added a whole new dimension and a whole new level of confusion to this. First remember midi is midi and audio is audio. The RT/RD's are prerecorded audio files so what you hear is what you get. What is very cool is the fact that even though they are prerecorded Biab is still able to chop up the files according to your chords and they can be at different tempo's within certain ranges. Having said that, if the piano part for one measure is a Cm9 and you want a Cm11, it may or may not have that available to you. Since these files are recorded ahead of time I'm sure for the jazz stuff they try to put in as many of the upper extensions as they can but there's no way they can put in all the different ways to voice a Cm11. You have no control over that, all you can do is put in Cm11 in the chord grid. What will really mess with your head is the style has no control over the Real Tracks. The chord grid does but not the style. The new all RT styles are really just demo's to show you what certain combinations of RT's can sound like. If you load up one of the all RT jazz swing styles and decide to change the jazz guitar solo for a bluegrass fiddle RT, that's what you will get because that fiddle part is prerecorded.
Midi is different. Midi parts are completely controlled by the style, If you're using one of the jazz styles and you have "jazz up the chords" checked off then you will get lots of upper extensions but again you can't put in an exact voicing. The style determines that. You can create your own custom style that only uses certain voicings. The program is called "Band in a Box" and it designed to give you what it thinks are the appropriate chord voicings not necessarily what you think would sound best. Unfortunately, it's not called "Musical Director in a Box". Some of us wish it were. Very high level players design these voicings but of course a group of voicings for Green Dolphin may not be what you're looking for with Tunisia even though they could use the same style. You're correct in that for midi, not the RT's, you can put the file into Real Band and edit the piano part to achieve exact voicings or simply play them yourself on a midi keyboard controller. RT's are audio files, you can't edit those except for cutting and pasting.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
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Start with a blank sheet.
In the first enter C.d
In the second cell enter F.db
In the third A
In the fourth C/G
In the fifth F/A
in the sixth G/B
You should also try entering chords like this
C,C#,D,D#
Try out C.p
C.d
C.b
C.s
C.g
and combinations of those. ie C.dp
Do a cycle of fifths and put the root chord in with the slash C/G
Finally go online and look for Band in a Box files, every jazz standard I've looked for I've found there.
Of course the first rule of jazz is to let it go. You are not going to enter note for note transcriptions unless you are somewhat nuts. LOL
Those tracks such as Guitar tracks...try and find the ones by Oliver Gannon. Check his bio. Miles Davis on piano, do the same. And Neil Swainson on bass. Those dudes have all played a lot of gigs, and they thought enough of the software to put their chops into it.
And as the boss man says (Peter Gannon) have fun. Oh and so did Oscar Peterson.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 211
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Vinnie,
I'm not an expert at BIAB. I've only been using it for awhile and I depend a great deal on my manual and asking questions here. So, don't take what I'm telling you as standard procedure. However, I myself have found some success here and there at manipulating things by using the Soloist feature. Since I'm not certain where you're coming from I'll explain a bit of the method to my madness ...
When you go into the soloist there's a button to edit the solo maker. Once there you'll find that you're able to create your own soloist and use your own customized solo parameters. Again, I believe I've found some degree of success here but I'm only certain it'll either satisfy you or not.
Using this method you can do such things as setting a specific range of notes for the soloist to use in it's generation, manipulation of phrasing and even boosting legato by a certain percentage. Having messed around with these and (using the trial and error method), I then allow the soloist to create the solo for the entire song and then I simply use the bar settings feature for certain ranges of bars to turn my solo either on or off.
I'm not sure this helps you at all and I don't often respond to questions because I'm very new to this, but maybe we both get lucky and this one helps you out.
Ike
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 6
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OP
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Wow--great stuff! I read and enjoyed all the posts and it's definitely helping me to understand this tool better.
Rachael, I took your advice and listened to some of the actual WAV files for the RT/RDs. That was helpful.
Jazzmammal--excellent overview of what RT/RD will and won't do. You confirmed what I had suspected, but with a lot of additional detail that I needed to know.
John--thanks for taking the time to spell out those chord progressions. I'm going to give those a shot, although I think I still need to learn more about what some of those "codes" do so I can use them more creatively.
Russell--good tips about the soloist. Might not need it for my current stuff, as *I'm* the soloist. :-) But I plan to record other songs in different styles for which I probably will need solos on instruments I can't play. Then it will come in handy.
I think I get the overall picture. So after a long and frustrating weekend of working on all this stuff, I'm at a bit of an impasses, especially regarding the drums. I have a drum plug-in called Superior Drums which works in my DAW. Amazing sounds, totally realistic, with lots of dynamics, individual outs for each drum, mic placements, numerous other features. Comes with a library of 4 and 8-bar MIDI patterns that are well-performed. I can combine those in my DAW and do all the edits I need to surgical precision using standard MIDI/sequencer techniques.
The down side is, I have to piece together all the drum parts myself. It's so much easier to stay hands-off and just let "Terry Clarke" in BIAB make up amazing drum tracks, but then I can't have specific arrangements. And just figuring out the coding and logic that BIAB uses, so I can have the maximum control possible and have, for example, just the right placement of fills and cymbal crashes, seems arduous.
So I guess the question for today is, is it worth it to spend all the time learning the BIAB RT/RD logic given that I will still be somewhat limited? Or should I just go with my other drum plugin/DAW combo?
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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try putting in a part maker by clicking on the chord sheet to change from standard to blue to green. You can force fills...
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Vinnie, I use a combination. I start compositions in BIAB, move them into the sequencer I am familiar with, then to my audio wave editor with mastering plugin, then to a CD burning program. No tool does it all.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 378
Journeyman
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Journeyman
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Quote:
try putting in a part maker by clicking on the chord sheet to change from standard to blue to green. You can force fills...
I have also noticed that you do not need to make the part marker the alternate part all the time for fills. If you're in a blue part marker [verse], and want a fill in certain spots within the verse, put another of the same part marker at the appropriate bar and force a drum fill. It also makes a nice couple of tasty bars if you drop in the same part marker a bar before a shot or hold, too. All this is newbie stuff to most here I'm sure but heck- I'm a newbie too, so when in Rome...
But I know what you mean about the drums. I use EZD, but I don't mind building the performance because it's usually fairly quick, except of course for all those pesky custom spots. What I miss more than anything when using RD's is the lack of multi-track control. It goes against every fiber of my being to apply a verb for snare to a stereo track of RD's, effecting the whole damn kit. Although interestingly, the snare really does sound the most effected! I think it's because the snares in RD's are all mixed a bit out front, so you can go all the easier on a verb for snare. But another thing too- don't forget to keep regenerating the drums. It sounds to me like it has a half dozen or so different parts and patterns to cycle through with regenerate. Maybe more- not sure. But some very cool fills [and grooves] pop out sometimes that are absolute keepers. As good as EZD fills are and even if I write my own, a number of RD's fills are quite tasty. Forcing them out with part markers can yeild some real interesting turns too.
But here's where I'M at- how in the hell do I keep performances that I love when the CHART isn't fully written yet? This one is killing me. I know I can freeze, but when more bars are added, ya gotta unfreeze for everything to follow, and then there goes my favorite performances thus far... out the window.
Dan
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Also Vinny, I've said this in another post but in your case- for your RT's jazz composition, let ALL of what happens just happen. Give full control over to what generates [or regenerates] from your chart. If it doesn't or can't match what's in your head, go with the flow of what's happening anyway. There is some control over RT's, as has been mentioned. But let your bass notes and fills go and work with what's generating from your chart. It's not only liberating, but I'm finding there's performances in there that out-write what I had in mind. And it'll save some frustration too. Let the guys play your chart *their* way. With jazz especially, RT's are raising my eyebrows a bit! LOL!
Dan
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
The down side is, I have to piece together all the drum parts myself. It's so much easier to stay hands-off and just let "Terry Clarke" in BIAB make up amazing drum tracks, but then I can't have specific arrangements. And just figuring out the coding and logic that BIAB uses, so I can have the maximum control possible and have, for example, just the right placement of fills and cymbal crashes, seems arduous.
So I guess the question for today is, is it worth it to spend all the time learning the BIAB RT/RD logic given that I will still be somewhat limited? Or should I just go with my other drum plugin/DAW combo?
You just nailed the conundrum Vinny. A good answer to this is to use Real Band. I also have a very good drum synth in Jamstix. Nothing is perfect and here's the problem with RB: It has some VST implementation glitch that's been known for years and for some reason not been fixed. It let's you use your drum modules for sound but not to create their own drum parts. If you really want your drum module to create it's own parts you have to use another DAW.
Still, RB lets you create multiple drum parts on separate tracks without it changing any other tracks. This means you can create several different Real Drum tracks, import in several midi drum tracks and create several new Biab midi drum tracks using different styles. What I have done to solve your problem of having a great basic Terry Clarke RD track but it's missing all the cool punches and things a tune like Joy Spring has for example, is to find a midi file of whatever tune you're working on that has a good drum track and start with that. It can take a while but there are some killer midi's out there where a pro laid down the drum track live on a midi drum set. I've taken a RD track and lowered the volume for a bar and let Jamstix play the fill or punch that the song needs and then bring back in the RD track. Some of my JS kits are a perfect match for the sound of the RD's. For latin stuff, I've used a good midi track layered with one or more of the good RD latin percussion tracks. Mixing and matching like that can yield very good results.
Dan, to answer your question of having a good basic track but then you change the chart, what I just described is also why you need to use Real Band, not Biab. The same principle applies to all the instruments, not just the drums. If you managed to find a great RT guitar part you want to keep and then changed the chart, in RB you can keep that track and regenerate a new one as many times as you want. It's very useful to generate one version of a part, then go into the chord grid and change the part markers and/or the style to give a different feel and do it again. Then you may want to keep part of your original track, maybe cut it and paste it onto another track and by doing that you may use parts of several different tracks in order to make one good one. Just like the drums, these tracks can be from a midi file, your own audio recording, a generated Real Track or a generated Biab midi track.
Real Band can give you a ton of choices to play and experiment with even with that VST glitch.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Journeyman
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Quote:
Dan, to answer your question of having a good basic track but then you change the chart, what I just described is also why you need to use Real Band, not Biab. The same principle applies to all the instruments, not just the drums. If you managed to find a great RT guitar part you want to keep and then changed the chart, in RB you can keep that track and regenerate a new one as many times as you want. It's very useful to generate one version of a part, then go into the chord grid and change the part markers and/or the style to give a different feel and do it again. Then you may want to keep part of your original track, maybe cut it and paste it onto another track and by doing that you may use parts of several different tracks in order to make one good one. Just like the drums, these tracks can be from a midi file, your own audio recording, a generated Real Track or a generated Biab midi track.
Real Band can give you a ton of choices to play and experiment with even with that VST glitch.
First off, thanks for responding Bob. I hoped my question didn't get lost.
What I have trouble with is getting some great performances going with sometimes literally only half the chart done. I like to hear how RT's are sounding with my chart as I go along. Sure, I could render the good "half performances" and mix and match, but that's not always what I'm after. A full performance, no matter what instrument RT, has a certain style that plays out coherently unto itself. To mix and match one instruments performance can be hit or miss. I have also found that regenerating does seem to follow a round-robin pattern, where eventually that one great performance will pop back up. But with generating times being dreadfully slow, that is a total pain. What I'm learning to do is write up the chart in biab, without caring about the keeper RT's until the chart is fully finished. Then, spend a night choosing performances in RB. And I do mean a night. Something has to be done with the speed of generating, and saving a project too. I like to save as I go along and good grief, that can take up quite a chunk of your time alone. Same with generating tracks in RB. It takes so long I dread having to do it. It's a complete musical flow stopper. And that brings me to my last observation with this. I prefer to get the basic rhytum tracks generated in biab. I don't know about the rest of you, but RT's generate [and regenerate] WAY faster in biab than they do in RB. I can actually get some work done generating and regenerating tracks in biab. In RB, it's so slow it's painful. If they have actually improved the speed recently, I can't imagine how slow it was previously.
Dan
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Yeah, the slow generation of the RT's in RB is a problem. We're dealing with really large audio files here and that simply sucks up the processing power. Biab is the one that has the fast generation option. This was just implemented for this past Xmas. Many times what happens is the two programs leapfrog each other so that enhancement may make it into the next version of RB. For now, try to complete your arrangement first and start off in Biab and then drag and drop the tracks into RB later if that turns out to be a faster way to work. Other than that, I don't have any other answers for you.
For now the only real answer to this is a killer fast computer. We all talk about how you can get a pretty nice system for under $1,000 but if you go onto Newegg or Tiger Direct and check out the high end systems they still run around $2,500. I'm sure one of those systems will generate all those tracks fast but who wants to spend that kind of dough on a PC?
Btw, I discovered a few years ago that other DAW's are not any faster than RB even though at first it appears they are. What happens is they all use a ton of temp files that store all your edits and it seems like the workflow is way faster but when you're done and you go to save everything it can take 10-15 minutes to flush out all those temp files in order to save everything. RB does that flushing of those temp files as you go along so the workflow seems slower but the saving at the end is much faster. Six of one....
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Something has to be done with the speed of generating, ...
Hi Dan,
Have you discovered the "Use Fast Loading of Realtracks files" command at the bottom of the Audio menu?
That command really speeds things up here. There's still a slight wait state, but not terribly long. Great for working up songs as you are doing.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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What he's complaining about Mac, is the slow generation time in RB not Biab because I suggested for what he's wanting to do musically RB is the better choice. RB's generation times are very slow compared to Biab and I hope that's next on the hit list.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Other than I'm sure some code tweaks, BIAB's generation times aren't really sped up per se, because what it does is allow you to start playing a song while it keeps generating in the background. So, even though the song will start playing shortly after hitting the play button, BIAB is still generating the rest of the song in the background.
I don't know if that's going to work in RB, because the goal in RB is not necessarily to start playing from the beginning every time. Of course, I imagine the future will hold speed improvements (whether through technology enhancements or code enhancements), but I don't see how the same technique would work in RB, as the main purpose is to edit audio versus play audio.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Excellent point John, I forgot about that. When I'm working on a tune in RB, I usually jump all over the place trying different things out so there's no way that fast generation methodology is feasable. Even in Biab, people will post about the program locking up and it's because they stopped the tune after just a few bars and then tried to hit play again or make a quick chord change and the generation hasn't had time to finish.
Dan, this takes me back to my personal way of working in RB and that is to highlight 8 or 12 bars in any one track and let RB generate only that because it's much faster than doing a full 150 bars or whatever. At least you can audition a bunch of different RT's that way fairly quickly. I understand this isn't really what you want but it is what it is.
There's just no one perfect way to do things is there?
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Thanks guys. I have some thoughts but I have to run at the moment. But real quick- I tried to put this speed thing into perspective last night. The truth is, before RT's I had to do it ALL myself- every instrument, every note, every track, changes and all, experimenting with different instruments along the way. Often times, it could take six months or more to get where I'm at right now in RT's in a couple of hours. Seriously, you take a guy who has a full time life going on, trying to get material recorded, and have easily have six months of tracking time for a 24 track or more project. So in that context, sitting and waiting a bit for generating WHOLE performances that by the way, follow my goofy changes along the way without re-recording the whole mess, seems a small price to pay in the grand scheme. I think the software can do better and I hope it improves on speed. But all in all, it's accomplishing quite a feat given the circumstances.
Dan
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Those tracks such as Guitar tracks...try and find the ones by Oliver Gannon. Check his bio. Miles Davis on piano, do the same. And Neil Swainson on bass. Those dudes have all played a lot of gigs, and they thought enough of the software to put their chops into it.
And as the boss man says (Peter Gannon) have fun. Oh and so did Oscar Peterson.
I didn't know Miles Davis was on piano on these tracks... Too bad they couldn't get Miles Black...  Just funnin'....
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Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
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Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac Videos
With the release of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac, we’re rolling out a collection of brand-new videos on our YouTube channel. We’ll also keep this forum post updated so you can easily find all the latest videos in one convenient spot.
From overviews of new features and walkthroughs of the 202 new RealTracks, to highlights of XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAKs 18, the 2025 49-PAK, and in-depth tutorials — you’ll find everything you need to explore what’s new in Band-in-a-Box® 2025.
Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Mac Videos — we’ll be adding more videos as they’re released!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until July 31, 2025! Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Mac 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 Italian Version is Here!
Cari amici
È stata aggerate la versione in Italiano del programma più amato dagli appassionati di musica, il nostro Band-in-a-Box.
Questo è il link alla nuova versione 2025.
Di seguito i link per scaricare il pacchetti di lingua italiana aggiornati per Band-in-a-Box e RealBand, anche per chi avesse già comprato la nuova versione in inglese.
Band-in-a-Box 2025 - Italiano
RealBand 2025 - Italiano
Band-in-a-Box 2025 French Version is Here!
Bonjour à tous,
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 pour Windows est disponible en Français.
Le téléchargement se fait à partir du site PG Music
Pour ceux qui auraient déjà acheté la version 2025 de Band-in-a-Box (et qui donc ont une version anglaise), il est possible de "franciser" cette version avec les patchs suivants:
BIAB 2025 - francisation
RealBand 2025 - francisation
Voilà, enjoy!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 German Version is Here!
Update Your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 to Build 1128 for Windows Today!
Already using Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows®? Download Build 1128 now from our Support Page to enjoy the latest enhancements and improvements from our team.
Stay up to date—get the latest update now!
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