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I spend hours sometimes trying to isolate and accurately report issues and nothing changes
I think I can't do this any more. You and me both brother!
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The Plugin is up to 6 now and still don't work ... Hate to cherry pick a comment, and I only allow myself one or two really dark negative postings here in the forum a month, but I could not pass this one up. I just have to remind you all that the 6 stands for 6 ficken years of this! So if this is the future of BIAB, count me out. And after 6 ficken years my energy and enthusiasm has dropped 60% while the Plugin has gone nowhere but other developers have advanced with great software/iPad and Plugins and RealTracks Live Arranger keyboards and modules, because they listened. But PG... "They would not listen, they're not listening still
Perhaps they never will"
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Everyone seems to have a DAW that they like and use.
ALL the Reaper examples are because I CAN open an SGU directly in Reaper I CAN'T DO THAT WITH ANY OTHER DAW ON THE PLANET EARTH !
The whole idea of the PLUGIN is get the generate code out of the old delphi into JUCE C++ while cleaning up all the old limitations that hold it back, into ANY WIN, LIN, MAC DAW, iPad or Android.
This will give the same as I demo in that nasty horrible Reaper in your favorite DAW.
Wake up guys, other developers are writing it on the wall.
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I spend hours sometimes trying to isolate and accurately report issues and nothing changes
I think I can't do this any more. You and me both brother! Nowadays I dunno which is more tiresome...yearly BIAB updates that never quite get finished or the incessant droning about Reaper and C++ and old guard and on and on and on. If I were PGM I'd have probably closed this forum, cleared the decks and required everyone interested to sign up again with new guidelines for conversations! I guess that's why I don't have a forum!  FWIW, I think the BIAB White Paper idea is a good one and the contributors have done something positive with it.
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Forget Reaper Derangement Syndrome you will now have Logic Derangement Syndrome look out guys it's gonna getcha ! I'm gonna start posting lots of Logic.
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Forget Reaper Derangement Syndrome you will now have Logic Derangement Syndrome look out guys it's gonna getcha ! I'm gonna start posting lots of Logic. I like this concept! Additions like this to BiaB would be fantastic.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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A quick comparison of music tools that have chord tracks. I only show this to promote a normalization of terms and paradigms. Although you may not have thought of it this way, but BIAB was the first tool to have a Chord track where musicians followed it. Now there's more competition in that space. Session players Is a good name for a musician playing a particular instrument. I've always thought that BIAB should use that analogy more predominantly. It has recorded over 100 real musicians playing in thousands of instrument styles/phrases. It would help the company and new users to think of it that way as opposed to made-up terms such as real tracks, real drums or super midi tracks. Logic pro is the first in the industry to have machine learning session players where in contrast BIAB has recorded live session players for two decades. Rather than having a never-ending database of tens of thousands of styles to weed through, let the customers think more about the instruments that they want to use track by track to create their style. BIAB styles are a good starting point for people looking for a traditional sound. However, I see the industry, thus customers, focusing more on Instruments and Session players for their next track. This would cause a pivot in the Hierarchy with more emphasis on the Instrument and style of playing it (swing/shuffle / tempo / note duration, syncopation, pushes, emphases, in pocket/ahead of pocket) but could greatly improve the process of creating music if done clean and proper. Food for thought... ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/5tbNY4KX/Chord-Tracks.jpg)
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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More LDS: The Logic Chord trackIn a Logic Pro project, you can access the Chord track in the global tracks. You can add chords to the Chord track and have all the Session Players in the project follow them, playing in sync with each other. You can add chord progressions to the Chord track, and create chord groups that you can copy or loop to reuse the same sequence of chords in different parts of the project. ![[Linked Image from help.apple.com]](https://help.apple.com/assets/654E7F8CD472768668095520/654E7F9560B6B45E960FE823/en_US/4b8b75d238730dfcabb7e45375cb97d7.png) Region chordsSession Player regions can contain region chords. You can add and edit region chords, and you can choose a chord progression for a Session Player region. When a Session Player region contains region chords, it follows those region chords rather than the chords on the Chord track. You can also have a Session Player region follow the Chord track instead of its region chords. You can copy and paste chords between regions, paste chords from the Chord track to a region, and paste region chords to the Chord track. ![[Linked Image from help.apple.com]](https://help.apple.com/assets/654E7F8CD472768668095520/654E7F9560B6B45E960FE823/en_US/8448760068170c989d5cec32ed9c75d4.png)
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Everyone seems to have a DAW that they like and use.
ALL the Reaper examples are because I CAN open an SGU directly in Reaper I CAN'T DO THAT WITH ANY OTHER DAW ON THE PLANET EARTH ! I suspect that this is actually not correct. Have you ever tried opening an SGU song in RealBand?
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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Logic pro is the first in the industry to have machine learning session players where in contrast BIAB has recorded live session players for two decades.
Rather than having a never-ending database of tens of thousands of styles to weed through, let the customers think more about the instruments that they want to use track by track to create their style. +1 Logic’s session players are pretty amazing. Would love to have some of those features in BIAB. Too many BIAB styles. Overwhelming. The ability to significantly modify the players instead is a nice approach. Logic’s session musicians sound like real players, NOT midi musicians. Arm them with high quality sound modules (ToonTrack, NI, etc) and you have something that sounds very much like BIAB real tracks. That is worth checking out. If and when AAPL delivers a set of basic styles and a better chord entry interface it will have a serious contender to BIAB. Its not there yet,imo.
Last edited by mrgeeze; 06/04/24 07:22 AM.
biab2026(Mac) Latest Build
Mac OS (Latest)
Apple Mac Mini M2 pro 32GB Ram
Logic Pro (latest or pretty close)
Blue and White Sea Star
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I have spent so much time here trying hard to improve things while other software now seems to be way ahead in the game.
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What I have been saying is that there are too many "different" instruments. Rather than listing something as a "Clean Electric Guitar" it should be "Fender Electric Guitar" "Telecaster Electric Guitar" they should all be recorded "DI" on the same instrument, same levels forget recording with FX this gives too many that won't match a change in pattern so, all these guitars below can be put on the same track as changes in style/pattern that will be seamless as they will all be using the same FX, even changing from rhythm to soloist Then some intelligence matching can be used to find the substyle/variation for that instrument. I even made up a UserTrack for this very reason Multi Variations UserTracks Feedback ????? [Resolved] but things are very slow around here to catch on. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=28059&filename=BB24-Guitar-Types.png)
Last edited by musocity; 06/04/24 08:14 AM.
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MC, the reason some resist you is because not everyone uses or likes or needs Reaper, and showing how to do things in Reaper just frustrates those who do not care about reaper. Do whatever you feel like doing post what you want, but you have to admit at least to yourself when you post 20 straight posts on a new thread and NOONE responds it is a clue as to what others think. We don't dismiss your contribution. They are helpful at times. But at your own words you are exhausted from it. So, for your own sake take a break. You say BiaB is way behind the game, but most of us see that it is still light years ahead, and the others are just now starting to catch up. Some new ideas like Logic 11 is cool but it only does so much and will require growth of it's own. Some of your suggestions have played a part in the process, but you are not the ultimate authority on the subject. Every last one of us have played a part, and every last one of us use BiaB, our favorite DAW, pet Apps, useful Plugins in a different way for different reasons. PGM has to take into consideration their entire customer base, and not just those who want to do what you suggest. If i have never said it, thanks for caring about this so much during the years, but please relax and let life happen. PGM will do what they feel is best. Customers can use it as it develops for what they wish or not as needed.
Last edited by Rob Helms; 06/04/24 11:20 AM.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Rather than having a never-ending database of tens of thousands of styles to weed through, let the customers think more about the instruments that they want to use track by track to create their style.
This would cause a pivot in the Hierarchy with more emphasis on the Instrument and style of playing it (swing/shuffle / tempo / note duration, syncopation, pushes, emphases, in pocket/ahead of pocket) but could greatly improve the process of creating music if done clean and proper. This is an exercise in clean hierarchies with the data they already have. They improve this some in 2024 but skimped on categories/families/type/technique With more serious work on their hierarchies and filtering the correct session player with the correct instrument could be found in a matter of seconds. Top Categories:- Strings - Woodwinds - Brass - Percussion - Keyboards Organize the instrument into category/families Strings: - Autoharp - Banjo - Bass - Bazuki - Cello - Dulcimer - Fiddle - Guitar - Harp - Mandolin - Pedal Steel - Ukulele - Violin - Viola Woodwinds: - Clarinet - Flute - Harmonica - Saxophone Brass: - Horn Section - Trombone - Trumpet - Tuba Keyboards: - Accordion - Organ - Piano - Synth Percussion: - Vibes Vocals: - Vocal DrumsThen organized by subcategory - Guitar - Acoustics - Electric Then organized by subcategory type - Acoustic - Nylon - Steel Then organized by Technique: - Strumming - Fingerpick - Hammer - Mute - Rythm - Solo Then Organize by Tempo, Feel, Note duration EXAMPLE: CAT-----INSTR----TYPE------TECHNIQ----FEEL---DUR----TEMPO- Strings > Guitar > Acoustic > Strumming > Swing > 16th > 120 > Audition and select from a list of 10. Cleaning up and improving filtering/drill down would greatly simplifying the process of getting the right Session player/instrument. As mentioned earlier "auto filling the hierarchy list: for a given "band style" would also dramatically improve the time to creating music.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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There is a thing called RDS (Reaper Derangement Syndrome). I use Reaper as my DAW, and love it. So I suspect that I don't have RDS. Because I show Reaper working with Biab content 1000 times better than it can in Biab this is somehow sacrilegious. It works 1000 times better for you and your use cases. But perhaps there are other reasons that people don't want to use BiaB in Reaper. Personally, I prefer to use tools for what they do best. So I'd rather put backing tracks together in BiaB, synth vocal tracks in SynthesizerV, and editing in Reaper. My very limited experience with using embedded tools within DAWs hasn't changed my mind. I've found BiaB and SynthV as VSTis are just not as pleasant (or reliable) to work with as with the desktop versions. Rather than LEARNING from the examples it engenders RDS that blocks all rational thinking and hurts feelings. I hear your frustration. But saying people who aren't jumping on your ideas are akin to triggered snowflake libs isn't going to engender them to your position. There are other, simpler explanations to why people might not be jumping on your solution: - It's not officially supported, and they prefer to use tools that offer support.
- It requires using Reaper, and they don't use Reaper.
- They don't see working as Reaper as an improvement over working in BiaB.
- They don't see the current situation as needing the solution you propose.
Different users have different needs, and none of these possibilities require assuming that anyone is "deranged", lacks "rational thought", or has "hurt feelings". It's old guard loyalty at its best, with others too afraid to speak up as they might be cancelled. And... a reference to cancel culture. Again, you're resorting to name calling. I've been here a while. I'm not sure there are many people who are "too afraid to speak up", and I've not heard anyone complain about being "cancelled". I suggest that real issue isn't anything you've named, but that you haven't tried to understand people who aren't you. Sure, you've got a great solution that solves many of the problems that are important to you. But there's a cost to going to that solution, and there are rational reasons why someone might not want to adopt that solution. To convince people to go to your solution, you'll need to do more than show that it's as good, or even better than their current solution. You'll need to show that it's significantly better in order to get people to adopt that. And I don't think you've been able to convince people, mostly because you don't understand why they aren't adopting your solution. Going back to the UJAM thread - I honestly don't know why you're so excited about the UJAM guitars. To my ear, they're only OK. The naming of the various styles means I won't have a clue what it'll sound like until I try it. And the UI is fine for what it does, but not especially better or worse than the one in NI Session Guitarist or many of the other VI guitars I've got. It's not enough to build a better mousetrap when people are satisfied with "good enough". You're going to make enemies of people who would be your allies if you continue to belittle and insult them, instead of understanding their reluctance, and bridging that gap.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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There are other, simpler explanations to why people might not be jumping on your solution: - It's not officially supported, and they prefer to use tools that offer support. . . check
- It requires using Reaper, and they don't use Reaper. . . . check
- They don't see working as Reaper as an improvement over working in BiaB. . . check
- They don't see the current situation as needing the solution you propose.
. . . checkDifferent users have different needs, and none of these possibilities require assuming that anyone is "deranged", lacks "rational thought", or has "hurt feelings". And... a reference to cancel culture. Again, you're resorting to name calling. I suggest that real issue isn't anything you've named, but that you haven't tried to understand people who aren't you. Sure, you've got a great solution that solves many of the problems that are important to you. But there's a cost to going to that solution, and there are rational reasons why someone might not want to adopt that solution. To convince people to go to your solution, you'll need to do more than show that it's as good, or even better than their current solution. You'll need to show that it's significantly better in order to get people to adopt that. And I don't think you've been able to convince people, mostly because you don't understand why they aren't adopting your solution. Going back to the UJAM thread - I honestly don't know why you're so excited about the UJAM guitars. To my ear, they're only OK. The naming of the various styles means I won't have a clue what it'll sound like until I try it. And the UI is fine for what it does, but not especially better or worse than the one in NI Session Guitarist or many of the other VI guitars I've got. It's not enough to build a better mousetrap when people are satisfied with "good enough". You're going to make enemies of people who would be your allies if you continue to belittle and insult them, instead of understanding their reluctance, and bridging that gap.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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jpettit,
Nice breakdown.
However I would prefer a simpler family hierarchy tree that ends in "Type"
(CAT-----INSTR----TYPE: List)
(Strings > Guitar > Acoustic: List )
and then use/apply separate filters that are not a part of the tree: feel, tempo(range), etc., but so that they "remember" (respect) prior selection. I believe it's called "nested" sorting.
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one more +1 for David.
"It requires using Reaper, and they don't use Reaper."
"You're going to make enemies of people who would be your allies if you continue to belittle and insult them, instead of understanding their reluctance, and bridging that gap."
Exactly.
P.S. I started a thread in a wishlist about adding a Reaper thread for musocity. It was somewhat a long shot, but Peter Gannon replied that he is open to idea of DAW threads. I think this might be a multifaceted solution, as most people who use BIAB use DAWs. For one, musocity will find his audience, instead of forcing unrelated Reaper ideas in the threads where only a small percentage of people use Reaper. His ideas are sometimes very creative, but that will not make me switch a DAW of choice and likely other people feel similar.
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With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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