Hello everybody. I bought BIAB a few years ago and have been learning it off and on since then.
The question I have, as a musician and songwriter that usually records music into a DAW (Studio One) is how, at this point in 2024, most, or many, BIAB users conceive of the software and where it fits into their production pipelines.
When I first heard about BIAB, some time before I acquired it, I was under the impression that it was a practice tool that instrumentalists (or singers) could use to hone their craft, practice melodies, learn how to improvise, or perhaps use as a songwriting tool.
Once you had enough practice, or finished writing your song, I figured that you would then need to record the song with accomplished musicians or use high end virtual instruments to create backing tracks for final mixes or song releases. Or maybe you would use the output directly from Band In a Box if you were doing things like having karaoke night with your pals or playing on the boardwalk next to the beach.
With what I have learned about RealTracks, it seems that, with PG Music's hiring of professional musicians to make them, as well as listening to some of the accompanying demos, the question arises whether the perception of the software among serious BIAB users, no doubt some of whom contribute to this forum, has evolved from it being a practice and songwriting tool to the exporting of stems or tracks to be used in the final mix inside your DAW for mixing and mastering into final releases (along with any virtual instruments you may need to enhance or extend the sound).
That kind of workflow would certainly save me a lot of time.
Thus my question is this: Has there been a shift on how people think about BIAB from a practice tool or using it to work out songs to an actual source of quality tracks that can be used in a final mixes?
How do people on this forum use the software and think about it? I would love to know your thoughts on this. Do the majority of you use it to practice your instruments and write songs and re-record the backing tracks later, or would you not hesitate to insert the parts into your DAW directly from BIAB and mix them in the final session? How do you think they hold up?
Joe, there's not a single answer to your questions, but BiaB is certainly used to provide backing tracks in a DAW, and the results can be impressive. I'd suggest listening to some songs in the User Showcase forum. There you can hear the results of other users and (usually) see the BiaB credits for the various tracks. You'll see/hear the spectrum from very select BiaB support (eg, drums only) to 100% BiaB backing. You'll certainly get other points of view on this, but I think BiaB is a powerful tool, suitable for final mixes. Welcome to the forums, and...have fun! Ron
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
I've never used BIAB as a practice tool. I first bought it in 2012 and my song productions went pretty much instantly from zero to hero! I use it on the majority of my songs sometimes as the complete band! I've sold a lot of my originals in the royalty free market. BIAB Is so much more than a practice tool!
Thus my question is this: Has there been a shift on how people think about BIAB from a practice tool or using it to work out songs to an actual source of quality tracks that can be used in a final mixes?
I can only speak for myself of course, but I use RealTracks for the final production. I used to produce and mix local bands, and compared to their almost unsalvageable trainwrecks of recordings , RealTracks are REALLY good. Good as in "professional musicians recorded by a professional sound engineer".
Some of them need a little love to shine, but in general they are very usable. And if I can't find anything suitable for the song at hand, I can still record my own stuff.
....................................... Do the majority of you use it to practice your instruments and write songs and re-record the backing tracks later, or would you not hesitate to insert the parts into your DAW directly from BIAB and mix them in the final session? How do you think they hold up? Thank you and cheers! Joe.
Hi Joe,
I am in the minority here as I use the MIDI side of BiaB. Virtually all of my songs start in BiaB and after I have my chord progression down and my style picked I immediately import them in my DAW, also Studio One Pro. I do very little work in BiaB and most all of my work in my DAW. There I choose my sounds and record my part(s). Thus to answer your questions I use BiaB about 98% of the time for song composing and 2% for practicing. I think BiaB's MIDI tracks hold up very well in my songs but you can be the judge of that by listening to my songs in the Showcase forum.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Hard for me to answer. Normally, if BIAB is on my screen, a client is being charged. Sometimes, I'm using the Audiophile Real Tracks; other times I'm using MIDI and VIs. Lately, I'm using the DAW plug-in in Digital Performer, again with my own VIs (many of the BIAB libraries are available, however, and I do use them now and then).
Even when I'm using the Real Tracks and Drums, I export everything into DP where I edit the overall feel and correct bass lines. BIAB rarely gets descending bass notes right but they are quite easy to edit for pitch and length in most DAWs.
BIAB 2026 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia/Tahoe, M1 & M5 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, Logic, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScore/Notion/Overture
Joe, there's not a single answer to your questions, but BiaB is certainly used to provide backing tracks in a DAW, and the results can be impressive. I'd suggest listening to some songs in the forum. There you can hear the results of other users and (usually) see the BiaB credits for the various tracks. You'll see/hear the spectrum from very select BiaB support (eg, drums only) to 100% BiaB backing. You'll certainly get other points of view on this, but I think BiaB is a powerful tool, suitable for final mixes. Welcome to the forums, and...have fun! Ron
Thank you Ron, I will spend some more time listening to the to the songs showcased in the forums. So basically are you saying that those showcased songs feature parts directly generated from BiaB and not that BiaB was used just in pre-production, correct?
Also, I was intrigued by what you said that some people use it only for the drums (is that RealDrums?) I was originally inquiring mostly about instrumental tracks and kind of forgot about drums. Are the drum tracks generated from BiaB exceptionally good? Is that an important aspect that should not be overlooked?
I've never used BIAB as a practice tool. I first bought it in 2012 and my song productions went pretty much instantly from zero to hero! I use it on the majority of my songs sometimes as the complete band! I've sold a lot of my originals in the royalty free market. BIAB Is so much more than a practice tool!
Good to know John. I will keep an eye out for some of your music. Thanks!
I can only speak for myself of course, but I use RealTracks for the final production. I used to produce and mix local bands, and compared to their almost unsalvageable trainwrecks of recordings , RealTracks are REALLY good. Good as in "professional musicians recorded by a professional sound engineer".
Some of them need a little love to shine, but in general they are very usable. And if I can't find anything suitable for the song at hand, I can still record my own stuff.
Thank you B.D. That would be great if as you say: "RealTracks are as good as pro musicians recorded by a pro engineer". I look forward to trying it for myself but wanted to guage the community first and get a concensus. By giving them a little love, I am assuming that you mean adding EQ, saturation, delay, etc. As you say, nothing is stopping one from recording their own tracks. And that seems to be the nice thing about BiaB, you don't have to take every track.
Hi Joe, I am in the minority here as I use the MIDI side of BiaB. Virtually all of my songs start in BiaB and after I have my chord progression down and my style picked I immediately import them in my DAW, also Studio One Pro. I do very little work in BiaB and most all of my work in my DAW. There I choose my sounds and record my part(s). Thus to answer your questions I use BiaB about 98% of the time for song composing and 2% for practicing. I think BiaB's MIDI tracks hold up very well in my songs but you can be the judge of that by listening to my songs in the Showcase forum.
This is interesting Mario. So basically, are you saying that you are not really interested so much in the RealTracks but the MIDI tracks (or do you somehow convert the RealTracks/RealDrums into MIDI?). Or are they "MIDI SuperTracks" and that is what they were and will stay.
Just so I understand your workflow correctly, you are not using it just for practicing and songwriting, but you would then bring BiaB generated MIDI into your DAW (the bass, drums, organ, etc.) and apply your Virtual instruments to it and build the final track that way. I also use a lot of MIDI. This is also a good thing...
I'll check out your tunes. So no Realtracks, just MIDI and VST?
Hard for me to answer. Normally, if BIAB is on my screen, a client is being charged. Sometimes, I'm using the Audiophile Real Tracks; other times I'm using MIDI and VIs. Lately, I'm using the DAW plug-in in Digital Performer, again with my own VIs (many of the BIAB libraries are available, however, and I do use them now and then).
Even when I'm using the Real Tracks and Drums, I export everything into DP where I edit the overall feel and correct bass lines. BIAB rarely hets descending bass notes right but they are quite easy to edit for pitch and length in most DAWs.
Thanks Mike. That is fascinating as well. So you are using RealTracks and MIDI. Hmm. I don't think I have the Audiophile RealTracks. I believe I have the UltraPak. Maybe it would be worth the investment based on my results. They must be much larger in size. Where do you store all of them? Is there a very noticeable improvement in quality. What are the UltraPak tracks, MP3? What is the difference exactly?
By the way, are you saying that the BIAB VST Libraries are available in your DAW and you can use them there? That is pretty cool. Are there any you think are worth mentioning?
The only thing I question is that when you said that even when you are using the RealTracks and Drums you edit the feel and correct bass lines in your DAW. Do you mean that you edit the generated waveforms by slicing them up and moving them around so that they hit at the right time, or are you talking more about FX, or might you somehow be converting the RealTracks to MIDI and editing them that way? Thanks I am still in the research phase preparing for some new music I want to produce and am trying to learn as much as I can at this point.
By the way, I am listening to the PG Music Band-in-a-Box Radio and think the songs sound great! I still am not sure what I am hearing is BiaB and what is something else, but I am noticing that some of the songs have production notes, so I will try to delve in there.
This is interesting Mario. So basically, are you saying that you are not really interested so much in the RealTracks but the MIDI tracks (or do you somehow convert the RealTracks/RealDrums into MIDI?). Or are they "MIDI SuperTracks" and that is what they were and will stay.
I rarely use RTs or RDs, however they are a tool that for me does come in handy on occasions. If the RT/RD has a line under it in the chord window view then that RT/RD includes a MIDI track and I use it. If said RT does not have a line under it and I would like to use it as MIDI I run the RT through Melodyne to convert it to MIDI. I mostly use BiaB MIDI tracks and the MIDI Super Tracks though.
Originally Posted by Animas3D
Just so I understand your workflow correctly, you are not using it just for practicing and songwriting, but you would then bring BiaB generated MIDI into your DAW (the bass, drums, organ, etc.) and apply your Virtual instruments to it and build the final track that way. I also use a lot of MIDI. This is also a good thing...
I'll check out your tunes. So no Realtracks, just MIDI and VST?
Yes, I bring the BiaB MIDI tracks into my DAW, assign a VSTi to said track, and sometimes modify the track. By modify I mean cut and paste and/or write/play sections and/or change the chord inversion or add/correct chord notes, etc.
Most all of my songs are MIDI only along with my playing parts, i.e guitar, keyboard, bass, etc. But on a rare occasion I will use an RT or two.
I hope this helps.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
......................................... By the way, I am listening to the PG Music Band-in-a-Box Radio and think the songs sound great! I still am not sure what I am hearing is BiaB and what is something else, but I am noticing that some of the songs have production notes, so I will try to delve in there.
Thanks!
If you listen to the songs in the Showcase forum most people list what BiaB tracks they use. The listings include MIDI tracks (RTs and RDs), what MIDI VSTis they used, what they played, etc.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
If you listen to the songs in the Showcase forum most people list what BiaB tracks they use. The listings include MIDI tracks (RTs and RDs), what MIDI VSTis they used, what they played, etc.
Thank you Ron, I will spend some more time listening to the to the songs showcased in the forums. So basically are you saying that those showcased songs feature parts directly generated from BiaB and not that BiaB was used just in pre-production, correct?
Correct
Originally Posted by Animas3D
Also, I was intrigued by what you said that some people use it only for the drums (is that RealDrums?) I was originally inquiring mostly about instrumental tracks and kind of forgot about drums. Are the drum tracks generated from BiaB exceptionally good? Is that an important aspect that should not be overlooked?
I only used "drums" as an example of a limited BiaB application. I use BiaB drums exclusively, and am pleased with the results I can get. But some users prefer to use other percussion sources, like EZDrummer. So...it depends.
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
The main reason I bought BB back around 2008 was to get access to a good sounding steel guitar.. I knew another musician in the Cakewalk forum at the time who was using some really cool drum and bass tracks in his music. When I asked about how he did his drums he responded with band in a box. Curiosity got me and I went to the PG website. What I saw and heard sold me. I quickly learned about the real tracks and have been using them in my production ever since.
I have never used BB as a practice tool. In fact, all the other features are essentially untouched. My sole purpose for BB is song creation, structure, and track rendering.
Previously , BB was limited to 5 tracks per style. So I used real band to render additional tracks not in the basic style. When they added utility tracks, I didn't have a reason to use real band for anything.
I probably only use about 10% of BB's capabilities. But what I do use packs a powerful wallop.
Now with vst capabilities, I'll often just build my structure and then open BB as a get to generate the tracks with drag and drop convenience. If I don't like the track I delete it from the DAW and use BB get to try a different track and repeat the process until I get something that works.
With the vst, my workflow has changed slightly.
But yes, absolutely I do use the tracks for finished, professional level projects. Some of my music with exclusively BB tracks have been in film and TV shows. They are just that good.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I can only speak for myself of course, but I use RealTracks for the final production. I used to produce and mix local bands, and compared to their almost unsalvageable trainwrecks of recordings , RealTracks are REALLY good. Good as in "professional musicians recorded by a professional sound engineer".
Some of them need a little love to shine, but in general they are very usable. And if I can't find anything suitable for the song at hand, I can still record my own stuff.
By giving them a little love, I am assuming that you mean adding EQ, saturation, delay, etc. As you say, nothing is stopping one from recording their own tracks. And that seems to be the nice thing about BiaB, you don't have to take every track.
Yep, it's mostly EQ, and of course the reverb I use for the other tracks to have some consistency here.
Thanks Mike. That is fascinating as well. So you are using RealTracks and MIDI. Hmm. I don't think I have the Audiophile RealTracks. I believe I have the UltraPak. Maybe it would be worth the investment based on my results. They must be much larger in size. Where do you store all of them? Is there a very noticeable improvement in quality. What are the UltraPak tracks, MP3? What is the difference exactly?
If you have the Ultrapak, then it's not the audiophile version. The audiophile version is now a bit over 2TB.
It doesn't make a huge difference just straight out of BiaB, but people who do much processing after BiaB often say it's then signficant. That's pretty reasonable if one is making high-quality productions, perhaps less so for stuff going on, say, YouTube.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
[quote=Mike Halloran] … The only thing I question is that when you said that even when you are using the RealTracks and Drums you edit the feel and correct bass lines in your DAW. Do you mean that you edit the generated waveforms by slicing them up and moving them around so that they hit at the right time…
That's exactly what I'm saying.
You can see that in this video. It started with a couple of live guitars but the client wanted it in a different key. I found that _OLDBOPSTY had the sounds I wanted but everything was straight 4/4 when I needed a few bars in 6/4 and there was no syncopation in the drum part. You'll see the metronome at the top and my edits in DP. The bass and piano do have some nice hits vis a vis the drums so I edited the 5 tracks to match the original parts but based my timing on the drums leaving the other four in the same relative position. I did stretch the piano and bass to cover silences that would have been obvious had I not done so You can't see which were stretched, likewise, you can't tell which bass notes were pitch-corrected.
I later transposed the original guitars which matched perfectly. They sound weird on their own so they are mixed low. My co-producer played a more conventional lead guitar but the client hasn't heard it—he loved the BIAB track, however (I'm fine either way). Since I made this video to demonstrate BIAB, none of that is included nor the vocals.
BIAB 2026 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia/Tahoe, M1 & M5 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, Logic, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScore/Notion/Overture
Thanks Mike. That is fascinating as well. So you are using RealTracks and MIDI. Hmm. I don't think I have the Audiophile RealTracks. I believe I have the UltraPak. Maybe it would be worth the investment based on my results. They must be much larger in size. Where do you store all of them? Is there a very noticeable improvement in quality. What are the UltraPak tracks, MP3? What is the difference exactly?
If you have the Ultrapak, then it's not the audiophile version. The audiophile version is now a bit over 2TB.
Quote
It doesn't make a huge difference just straight out of BiaB, but people who do much processing after BiaB often say it's then signficant. That's pretty reasonable if one is making high-quality productions, perhaps less so for stuff going on, say, YouTube.
I agree, the YouTube compression algorithms make any differences negligible.
Otherwise, for my work, Audiophile is the only choice. I'm told that my 70 year old ears can't hear the difference but once that audio goes through my normal process, it's quite noticeable.
BIAB 2026 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia/Tahoe, M1 & M5 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, Logic, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScore/Notion/Overture
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MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
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Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
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