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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Any difference soundwise between Roland VST, Roland DXi and the Coyote wave table? I just installed the 2010.5 BIAB upgrade and couldn't get the Dxi or Coyote wave table to work. Support just said use the VST synth. Is it the same quality as the others or shoild I continue to trouble shoot?
Thanks,
MB
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2007
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It depends on which version of Windows you have. If you have 64 bit, the Coyote wave table is your only choice. Sound quality is not great but it will allow you to use BIAB. XP or Vista will work with any of those you mentioned. Stick with the Roland VST/DXi for best sound. PG also sells Coyote Forte which sounds better (to me) than any of those.
I'm not sure what problem you are having. In your Midi setup screen, be sure to check the 'Use VST/DXi synth' box. Another screen will open up allowing you to choose your synth.
R
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi Mark
Difficult quesstion,i have spent the last 10 years tring to get my sound right to what i thought was good,if i had spent all the money i have spent over those years all in one go at the begining i could have got what i wanted,to me thats whats needed money to buy the best right at the start, but by now it would be out of date so you can`t win unless your rich,i have brought every soft synth,samplers,romplers,hard wear gear,programs galore and the best of the lot so far is the SD2 with the money i can afford
regards Dave
Last edited by jazzband; 08/12/10 04:21 AM.
I always play the right notes but not always in the right order
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
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Quote:
... Support just said use the VST synth. Is it the same quality as the others or shoild I continue to trouble shoot?
Thanks,
MB
Well, it they are referring to the VSC in VSTi version, which I think they are, then it is both functionally and sonically the same as the VSC DXi version. Just a different format of the exact same synth.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2004
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Quote:
It depends on which version of Windows you have. If you have 64 bit, the Coyote wave table is your only choice. Sound quality is not great but it will allow you to use BIAB. XP or Vista will work with any of those you mentioned. Stick with the Roland VST/DXi for best sound. PG also sells Coyote Forte which sounds better (to me) than any of those.
I'm not sure what problem you are having. In your Midi setup screen, be sure to check the 'Use VST/DXi synth' box. Another screen will open up allowing you to choose your synth.
R
Are you sure there is a difference between the included Coyote and Forte? (They are both "wavetable".)
I thought there was only one Coyote GM softsynth.
Please don't confuse VST with VSC.
I don't think that Roland VSC is very good. The one included with Sonar is better, I think called TTS, and I think is the same as Roland-Edirol Hypercanvas.
By the way, you write that if one uses 64 bit, Coyote is the only choice. But then you write that any of them will work with XP or Vista. What about 64 bit XP or Vista?
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Rachael does not appear to be the confused one here...
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Mac is right, you have them a little mixed up
Coyote is the maker, Forte is their GM synth that they sell, which uses samples, and can be upgraded by importing your own samples in the Giga format. It comes in both VSTi and DXi format.
Coyote's Wavetable synth which is included in Biab 2010, is different from the Forte product, and is a similar product to the old Microsoft synth GS, and neither is as clear sounding as the forte synth. This synth is a wavetable version of the other product much like Microsoft synth GS is a wavetable of some other synth from long ago. made for basic midi replay.
VSC is the old Edirol GM/GS synth it is a tad better than the wavetables from microsoft and coyote. It is a very decent synth but sadly development has ended and it is not 64 bit compliant.
TTS is a notch up from there, and allows far more tweaking to get good sounds. This synth will do a great job and while not the best holds it's own in most situations. Add a couple solid Real Tracks and it will do a good job, especially in a live format.
Some here also use Sampletank With Omnisynth. it sounds good but is a little bit shakey. To me TTS is just as good and less problems. I do use Sampletank but not the Omnisynth GM set, I like the regular sampler program, but it requires setup for each song as it is not GM compliant, so i usually only use it in Real Band, and not BiaB. I hope this is as clear as mud! Rob
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Rachael does not appear to be the confused one here...
I think you are implying that I said that Rachael was confused, and you are saying that I am the one who is confused.
Sorry Mac, but you misread my post. The post I wrote with the phrase "Please don't confuse VST with VSC", was addressed politely to the OP, which was not Rachael, but I believe Mark Bosko. (I don't see all the names now, while writing this.) In discussing softsynths, he mentions one called "Roland VST". I think he meant "Roland VSC".
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Mac is right, you have them a little mixed up
Coyote is the maker, Forte is their GM synth that they sell, which uses samples, and can be upgraded by importing your own samples in the Giga format. It comes in both VSTi and DXi format.
Coyote's Wavetable synth which is included in Biab 2010, is different from the Forte product, and is a similar product to the old Microsoft synth GS, and neither is as clear sounding as the forte synth. This synth is a wavetable version of the other product much like Microsoft synth GS is a wavetable of some other synth from long ago. made for basic midi replay. ..
It is no secret who made the Microsoft GS Synth. It is clearly licensed from Roland, and is labeled as such. The GS in the title even gives that away. In a way then, it is a stripped down VSC. (VSC can also be installed as a systemwide synth, replacing the Microsoft Synth.)
The only thing about that is-- VSC has not been developed further in several years. I don't know if the Microsoft Synth has been developed further, with new versions of Windows. (I haven't tried it in a while, don't know.) So it is not inconceivable that the MS-Roland-GS synth in 2010, might possible be better than VSC, which is very old. I don't know.
I don't know either about the two Coyote synths. It would be surprising to me, that Coyote would use a synth that is no different than the Microsoft synth. For one thing, I am sure that the Microsoft synth comes with Win 64 versions. So, why not just use that then--already installed in the OS? Also, I would think that Coyote would have to pay Microsoft and/or Roland to get the GS synth. Why would they do that?
The Coyote Forte DXI synth, stopped development years ago, AFAIK, at version 1.6. Therefore, I thought that perhaps as a discontinued software, they license it cheaply to PGMusic as Coyote WT.
(Note--I am not implying that what I wrote about the two Coyote synths are fact. As I wrote, I don't know. Just sharing some thoughts.)
By the way, yet another idea for a GM softsynth.
Papelmedia makes an excellent very large soundfont that includes a full GM synth. You can now buy it and download it for less than 20 euros. (Not sure of the exchange rate now, but I would guess less than US $30.)
You would then need a Soundfont player to use it with BIAB. It comes with one, Synthfont, I think, but I think that that is shareware, and eventually won't work any more without payment. SFZ is a good soundfont player that is totally free. In fact, now from the Cakewalk store, one can download SFZ+ for free. (The plus version used to cost, but is now free as well.) (If you have a Soundblaster card, that has some kind of built-in Soundfont capability, but I don't think suitable to load a large soundfont like Papelmedia.
I recently bought and downloaded the papelmedia GM Soundfont, although I haven't yet tried it. Two versions of the full GM soundfont come in the package-- on one the size is reported as being 266,291 KB (not sure of the exact MB translation--250?), the other (with XXL added to the name) as 1,263,738 KB. (In other words, more than a GB.) I am not sure what is different about the XXL soundfont--more sounds, better sounds, or both? Besides those two large multi-soundfonts containing full GM sets, an individual soundfont for each instrument is also included, both in regular and XXL versions. (For use with BIAB though, use the full GM set soundfont, either regular or XXL.)
I am really quite OK with using TTS (I have Sonar) with BIAB, but for the low price, including so much, I thought I would try the Papelmedia soundfont as well. I'll do a review when I try it. (I have seen very good reviews of it.) (If anyone else here tries it before I do, please review.)
I looked in the program folder of Coyote WT, and as some have said, there are no samples there, so perhaps correct, that it just turns the Microsoft GS Synth into a DXI. I am not sure how valuable that is. I have the coyote forte product as well (although I haven't been using it lately, but only TTS for GM), and that program folder includes about 170 MB of samples. So, my assumption about it was incorrect. (I think I will uninstall Coyote WT. I think too, that BIAB should not install it by default, as it does. Nice to have it available, for those that want it, but most people already have other GM synths, and all Windows users already have the Microsoft GS Synth. (And Apple users have the QuickTime synth, also by Roland.)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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The Coyote WT allows using the MS synth as a DXi synth (allowing rendering and effects to be added to it). It is indeed 'borrowing' the sounds from the OS, which is already licensed to the user.  The Forte is a much different synth than the WT. For one thing it uses a whole different soundset and the Forte can be customized (though it is a pain) for the patches being used.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
The Coyote WT allows using the MS synth as a DXi synth (allowing rendering and effects to be added to it). It is indeed 'borrowing' the sounds from the OS, which is already licensed to the user.
The Forte is a much different synth than the WT. For one thing it uses a whole different soundset and the Forte can be customized (though it is a pain) for the patches being used.
Thanks for the explanation.
IMO then, PG Music should not have it install by default with BIAB, without any explanation of what it is, that it includes no sounds of its own, etc.
It can be included on the installation disc, with the ability to install it, and an explanation of exactly what it is.
The way it is setup (I don't have 2011 yet, so am talking about 2010) a lot of people will install it with no need for it, and not knowing really what it is (as I didn't).
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Well, it doesn't take much space, and on the 2011 install, if you watch closely, there is chance to uncheck the box to install it.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Maiki, you're making something out of nothing. For years PG included the VSC just so when a new user first opens Biab they can hear some sounds. Now with so many 64 bit systems they needed to come up with an alternative. The TTS-1 was not an option because it's only available with Cakewalk products so PG now sells Music Creator for $39 not because you need another sequencer since PG already has Real Band, it's so you can get the TTS-1 for $39. Not bad.
Just using the basic wavetable that comes with all PC's only gives sounds no DXi rendering or effects. Somehow Coyote was able to add some programming to it to turn that wavetable into a DXi so PG can still include a basic DXi synth for free. It sounds like crap and nobody cares but there it is. They didn't want to ship the product with no DXi at all. The Coyote wavetable and the Coyote Forte are entirely different. Since one is free and the other costs $40, that should be obvious. The TTS-1 is good but for my money the Forte is better.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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