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Good question.
I think you are going to get two to three camps here.
SAVE In File menu for all apps
1) I personally learn 3 decades ago that Ctr + S saves so I do not need to waste space with save button.
2) Others may have been hitting your save button for years.
OPEN In File menu for all apps
1) Many DAWs have a dedicated song browser with tabs. PGM has the Song Tab. 80% of the time I use the OS file browser to go the directories in my organization so no button for me.
2) Others have used your Song Browser.
So, I would vote for let the user decide what buttons are in the tool bar.
You can default you what you have but let others remove them. I have to disagree here with #1. I'm at the moment helping out in some beginners' courses for computers and newcomers will not be familiar with those shortcuts, so I think the items must be on the menu. Those of us who work with multiple different operating systems can find that useful, too. Whilst most applications have adopted the Microsoft or MS-like shortcuts, some have shortcut systems that differ (usually from historic incompatibility). I would certainly have: New New from template Open Open Recent... Save Save As... Import Export Close Quit Possibly, though these could be Exports: Print preview Print Open and saves would be BiaB-native formats. Import and Export for other formats, with a sub-menu and/or a dialog for the format. I don't disagree with the concept of letting the user decide, but I do think a conventional list is the right default. I don't know what degree of disruption user-configurability would cause to development, though I do know that it's already doable with at least some menus.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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I believe I predicted there will be at least three camps.  Sure, for the menu. Of the dozens of programs I use on a daily basis, none have a Save button except BB. Although popular in the 90s when GUIs started, we currently have no option other than to ignore.
Last edited by jpettit; 02/12/25 03:43 PM.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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Jeff, sorry, but put me in the camp of wanting and using a Save button. Is that door number 1, 2, or 3?
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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My camp! Where you can make all 4 "Save buttons" if you really - really want to  Also in my camp you would be able to save a triple key shortcut(s) of your choice as a quick access button.
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I believe I predicted there will be at least three camps. Sure, for the menu. Of the dozens of programs I use on a daily basis, none have a Save button except BB. Although popular in the 90s when GUIs started, we currently have no option other than to ignore. You did, though I believe it was for the menu, not for buttons. I was just stating my view. The other part is curious ... I too use dozens of applications and a great many of them do have a save button, though I just looked through several music-related applications to find that only one of those did, whilst most office tools had one.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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I believe I predicted there will be at least three camps. Sure, for the menu. Of the dozens of programs I use on a daily basis, none have a Save button except BB. Although popular in the 90s when GUIs started, we currently have no option other than to ignore. You did, though I believe it was for the menu, not for buttons. I was just stating my view. The other part is curious ... I too use dozens of applications and a great many of them do have a save button, though I just looked through several music-related applications to find that only one of those did, whilst most office tools had one. Yes, I understand, and I guess the open buttons and recent lists have been moved to the opening screens, which I do use in Studio One, Cakewalk, Adobe Suite, Office 365 apps. I can't think of a save button. To be honest I use a close with the dirty bit set so your flagged to make the choice to save on a shut down. Anyway a common solution for all inputs so far would be user configurable buttons with the BB classics as a theme and more minimal themes available and savable. I use a custom tool bar with only Muli Picker Library and Track View/Chord view toggle on it 80% of the time. I also add Audio Edit for envelops and Piano Roll buttons for Playable RTs.
Last edited by jpettit; 02/12/25 06:55 PM.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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I agree that the New, Open, Save and Save-As buttons that are sometimes on the toolbar are mostly just wasted real estate, particularly when the icons are a 5-1/4 floppy or a hard drive with an arrow. These days, many young people have seen neither.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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all i ask...and i know its a challenge for any developer to put out a feature rich app like bb...is...please....make sure the bb new gui doesnt end up cluttered like some music apps ive tried recently.
for example i like reaps v2 because its not cluttered imho.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 02/13/25 06:02 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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The Freeze and Simple track buttons presently list individual legacy track and all tracks for selection but does not list utility tracks. Please add individual utility tracks to the selection lists. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=30307&filename=Clipboard01.jpg) ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=30308&filename=Clipboard02.jpg)
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if the definition of the Multi picker Library is:
A "Library of sounds" to build a song with, then the tabs:
1- Styles
2- Real Tracks
3- Real Drums
4) MIDI Super Tracks
5) MIDI Tracks
6) MIDI Soloist
7) Melodist
8) User Tracks
9) Loops
10) MIDI Patches
meet that definition and make a strong browser to sounds.
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SUGGESTION 1: Chord Progression and Chord Variation are "Reference Tools" that would be fit in a horizontal panel associated with the Chord View.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUGGESTION 2: Lyrics tab is a Tool more associated with a tool to build dedicated Phrased based Lyrics track in the Track view, or a dedicated Note based Lyrics Track in the Piano Roll and Notation views.
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SUGGESTION 3: Titles tab is a Tool directly associated to the Style Tab workflow and would fit better as a button in the Styles tab.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUGGESTION 4: Songs tab should be an "Opening Panel" that brings you into a song like many creative apps on the market.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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Jeff, not arguing with the points you're making but I'm having trouble understanding how it applies to "Make Freeze & Simple Icons Work With Utility Tracks".
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Jim, I think, because you changed "sub" thread subject from main ( Specific suggestions - Toolbars and layout) to "Make Freeze & Simple Icons Work With Utility Tracks", it seems Jeff is replying to you. I think he is replying to main thread.
Jeff +1000 on suggestions on layout sorting.
Last edited by Rustyspoon#; 02/23/25 05:56 PM.
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We need dedicated Solo and Mute buttons at VST3 window so it does these without going to the mixer. This is a standard everywhere else.
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Jeff, not arguing with the points you're making but I'm having trouble understanding how it applies to "Make Freeze & Simple Icons Work With Utility Tracks". It has nothing to do about that post. It is part of the OP. All the other pinned request lists name specific views. This is the only pinned list that can cover other topics like the multi Library. The Post actually has four distinct suggestions in it.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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Jeff and RustySpoon#,
Thanks for both of your responses.
I changed the heading of my post from the thread's default title to reflect the subject of my improvement suggestion. That way I can look at my posts and from the titles know I'm not duplicating suggestions.
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Yes, I think editing the OP title and all further posts inherit the edit title, is a bug in the forum software. Ironically, I first saw it with Misha edited the title (F5) about a month ago.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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Some confusions occur by using the quick-reply area rather then explicitly replying to a post by using the [Reply] or [Quote] buttons. The quick-reply inherits from the original post ... I sometimes think it would be better if the quick-reply area wasn't there.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
.
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Another idea for improve experience. I was thinking about this at the beginning of this effort and never got around to bringing it up. The Keyboard/Guitar view as a floating window, and buried in the mixer tabs (never used it), would seem more natural and more integrated into the process if it was a docked horizontal panel at the bottom of the screen.. I am seeing this in several other musical apps. This has at least four advantages: 1) More room for more keys and streamlines the usage. 2) Can be used as an MIDI input device with on screen chords recognition adding to workflow. 3) Can be used across many of the views as an educational/FYI view. 4) Eliminates the need for the 'piano per track view in the mixer' and enhances the floating keyboard to process input/recognition. I know you can float a window at the bottom, but this integrates it more with chord input/recognition and output/playback workflow. This does not take away the option to un-dock it. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=30349&filename=BIAB keyboard.jpg) (COMMENT: PGM has historically made an easier floating window instead of engineering a docked panel approach. A docked panel approach would greatly modernize the GUI, with relatively a small amount of effort.)
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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Although not a specific suggestion but I though this article by Kanaryi sounds would apply here. It shows ideas on what works and what doesn't work as it applies to GUIs. https://karanyisounds.com/crafting-...;mc_cid=d7c64b2f1f&mc_eid=44d89f9b4c
I arrived early to a restaurant.
The manager asks, "do you mind waiting a bit?"
I said no.
"Good", he said. "Take these drinks to table 3"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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This is very valuable information, Mario. Critical design is one of the most important steps with user interface development.
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