... It should be noted that this is at least the third organized effort by users to influence what happens with BIAB. The pace and direction the company decides to follow, and the amount they are receptive to user suggestions, is nothing we users can do anything about.
Yes, this. It's also not unreasonable to expect to receive some feedback in return for the effort.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
... It should be noted that this is at least the third organized effort by users to influence what happens with BIAB. The pace and direction the company decides to follow, and the amount they are receptive to user suggestions, is nothing we users can do anything about.
Yes, this. It's also not unreasonable to expect to receive some feedback in return for the effort.
Why? Someone incorrectly called this a White Paper. I can't be the only person who knows that White Papers are only written under the auspices of the companies making products. Since PG Music didn't commission this, it should have been called something else like, perhaps what it is, a user group survey.
This industry is rife with such surveys that are routinely ignored by the companies whose products we use. Feedback is nice and would be most welcome but any sense of entitlement is unwarranted.
BIAB 2025 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
Mike, your claim that the white paper authors don’t understand what that is, is wrong but understandable because you likely do not know the history I alluded to. The first (that I know of, and I’ve been on the two PG Music forums since 1996) user group attempt was indeed done with the knowledge and participation of PG Music. Eight of us had a conference with Peter and Andrew. A spreadsheet was developed (by me) and there was initial participation by both sides. The second resulted in a company-run bug list, and Simon is our main point of contact now, although some users still may not feel we have adequate communication. The third, as I’m classifying this, is this ‘white paper’. For the reason I stated, I cannot vouch for the level of participation by PG Music on that.
You asked why we feel as some of us do. You always have a great deal to offer here. If you still feel you need to lecture us on any of this process, please consider the history as I’ve just relayed a bit to you. Thank you.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
... Why? Someone incorrectly called this a White Paper. I can't be the only person who knows that White Papers are only written under the auspices of the companies making products. Since PG Music didn't commission this, it should have been called something else like, perhaps what it is, a user group survey. ...
Being pedantic about a chosen nomenclature is surely less than helpful, especially when it is perfectly obvious that the entire intention is to engage positively with the company and share ideas, provide valuable feedback, and assist to promote the product and its functionality. Being critical and overly concerned about the choice of 2 words in the title is not beneficial to anyone.
Debating about unimportant terminology details in this thread is not particularly useful in my view. I'm not sure if you perhaps feel you are contributing in a meaningful way by discussing and dissecting word use. Many others have contributed and delivered a significant valuable effort into improving the product over many years. Much of this background effort may not be obvious to some. I suspect that nearly everyone knows what the clear intention of the topic is. Well, at least nearly everyone.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Being pedantic about a chosen nomenclature is surely less than helpful,
Nonsense. I was responding to complaints by others that PG Music isn't providing feedback and doesn't appear to be taking this seriously. I do believe that, by calling this a White Paper, you have exaggerated its importance in the minds of others.
Those of us who have actually contributed to White Papers, either through university research grants, papers commissioned by companies or as employees, know what they are — even if you don't. Again, I can't be the only one.
BIAB 2025 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
Why? Someone incorrectly called this a White Paper. I can't be the only person who knows that White Papers are only written under the auspices of the companies making products. Since PG Music didn't commission this, it should have been called something else like, perhaps what it is, a user group survey.
Mr. Halloran, it should come as no surprise that I agree with Matt regarding lecturing us when you are ignorant of the history and also with AudioTrack regarding you being pedantic about nomenclature.
As for the nomenclature “White Paper”, here is one definition that can enlighten your understanding.
A white paper is a report or guide that informs readers concisely about a complex issue and presents the issuing body's philosophy on the matter. It is meant to help readers understand an issue, solve a problem, or make a decision. Since the 1990s, this type of document has proliferated in business. Source: Wikipedia
I hope you now understand what a White Paper is.
Moreover, it is clear you are jealous of those that seek to offer ideas and perspectives for BiaB improvement and market competitiveness.
But here is a radical thought. Rather than throwing jealousy-laden sand into the well-meaning gears of improvement, why not consider joining others in helping to design a better gearbox?
And another. Have you even read and understood our White Paper to begin with? If no, perhaps you should, it’s still readily available from the original post. If yes, then offer intelligent agreement or disagreement regarding the contents.
Jealousy is not useful.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Being pedantic about a chosen nomenclature is surely less than helpful,
Nonsense.
Have it as you see fit. You are entitled to your own opinion. After all, it is only your opinion.
I'm focusing instead on working collaboratively with PGM in progressing the product. That's what myself and several other dedicated professionals have done, both here and very much in the background for many years.
Negativity and unreasonable petty criticism is rarely beneficial in promoting genuine interests and ideas. I don't intend to engage with you any further on this matter.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
As for the nomenclature “White Paper”, here is one definition that can enlighten your understanding.
A white paper is a report or guide that informs readers concisely about a complex issue and presents the issuing body's philosophy on the matter. It is meant to help readers understand an issue, solve a problem, or make a decision. Since the 1990s, this type of document has proliferated in business. Source: Wikipedia
It's also still the current term and dating at least from the 1920s, for papers presented in the UK government, which also is in distinction to Mike's description. It's from where I know the term and AFAICS it's been borrowed by (US?) businesses for a similar-ish purpose.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
It's also still the current term and dating at least from the 1920s, for papers presented in the UK government, which also is in distinction to Mike's description. It's from where I know the term and AFAICS it's been borrowed by (US?) businesses for a similar-ish purpose.
Yep, full credit is due to the brilliance of Sir Winston.
The term white paper originated with the British government, and Churchill’s White Paper (1922) is said to be one of the first famous examples.
Historically in Britain, government papers were colour coded. “White” signified public accessibility, and the term has stuck since then. Originally used by government offices, it is now used by large businesses and areas such as commerce and technology, for example.
White papers are issued to help the public, customers, or shareholders make educated decisions, understand an issue, and stay informed of changes. Mike, the source is theidioms.com
Perhaps the only thing more rewarding than being educated, is educating those that need education.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Yep, full credit is due to the brilliance of Sir Winston.
I'm uncertain if he was responsible for the term/process; possibly just for a memorable document, which would have been a very early instance of a "White paper".
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Windows 10 (64bit) M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Band in a Box 2025, Cubase 14, Cakewalk and far too many VST plugins that I probably don't need or will ever use
I don't care what you call it. It was an opportunity for BiaB users to offer suggestions on improving it. It must have had some impact because of PGM's Wishlist forum postings soon after the paper was posted. Will anything become of said suggestions only PGM knows.
I think my wife has started to show the first signs of dementia. She said she can't remember what she ever saw in me!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
lol...i dont care about the colour of the paper. i just like to see the deep interraction between pg and the rest of us. one of the reasons reaper was successfull imho was due to this type of constant interraction. (there was a time when it first came on the scene that studios said to me 'that reaper will never catch on'...'just cheap shareware cant be good'...etc etc.)
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 06/07/2506:58 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
Moreover, it is clear you are jealous of those that seek to offer ideas and perspectives for BiaB improvement and market competitiveness.
As usual, you are dead wrong. You have posted a number of ignorant, petty diatribes to my posts over the years and this is on-brand for you. I normally let them slide but, occasionally, a response is warranted. I so hate to disappoint when you try to make it personal but really, you do not interest me. I'm sorry.
As for Matt's response, I was unaware of any interaction with PG Music (thanks, Matt!). You could have brought that up but nooooooo....
BIAB 2025 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
As for Matt's response, I was unaware of any interaction with PG Music (thanks, Matt!). You could have brought that up but nooooooo....
Do you still need schooling on what a white paper is? If so, more resources can be provided to you.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
[quote] As for Matt's response, I was unaware of any interaction with PG Music (thanks, Matt!). You could have brought that up but nooooooo....
You were doing fine until your last thought. Once again, I forgive you your ignorance since you have admitted to it. Here is another tiny bit of the history that should help you begin to understand, but I do not intend to take the time to reveal all to you. Here is one reason why:
There are different forums here with different users and different purposes. The longest running one is that of the beta testers. As you would know better than most here, we sign an agreement not to reveal what we know. I believe I can speak for most of us who take that also to mean not airing arguments spilling over into the public forums. I truly believe all testers share the goal of trying to help PG Music.
So why would we reveal the details of behind-the-scenes efforts in which we try to offer our suggestions to the developers, especially when they are not acted on? You will see that my posts in the public forums are mostly to offer whatever clarification I think could possibly help to calm things down. New users come here all the time claiming the company is making foolish decisions and the beta testers must be idiots. If I think I can give guidance that the company could be doing something differently, that doesn’t help anyone if it spills into the public view. I will on occasion offer a comment that someone’s idea is not the first time an issue has been raised. I do not feel I owe you an explanation for what you don’t know, Mike, even if provoked.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Please stop all the bickering - it serves no good whatsoever. What on earth do PG think of this - why should they take seriously the "white paper" . Don't know that I'll take the next yearly update.
Keith, one year out, what are your thoughts on the contents of the white paper? If at some point we update it, care to contribute to it?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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