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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hello All,
Why can't the midi Chord Wizard, somewhat accurately, interpret chords? I've given up on many songs; but now I have a job where the client wants to hear the fairly simple Beer Barrel Polka, so I download a midi. To make it easy on the CW, I strip the file of all instruments except bass,rhythm guitar and melody, Alas, very poor results even with a relatively simple bass line and few passing tones.
So once again, I take a look at the custom CW, make some adjustments, but still too many misinterpreted chords- way more misses than hits. Like always, I end up entering the chords manually. Has anybody figured this thing out?
Any tips on using the CW is greatly appreciated.
Percy
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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That tune is basically all major triads. Try it with just the guitar alone. Even the 1/5 bass line can confuse things. If you leave too many instruments in there, then the CW is trying to figure out a major triad with a b5 or a #9 or whatever in the melody with a 5 in the bass. Problem is even the chording instruments like a guitar may be following the melody in certain places. As you know a chord chart may only have major triads on it but including the melody or the myrid passing notes that are in even a simple song like that can add all kinds of weird chords if you were to actually take all the notes into account.
Something else to try is find a Biab file, not a midi file of that tune. Someone has probably entered the correct chords in a Biab file.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 463
Journeyman
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OP
Journeyman
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Posts: 463 |
Bob,
Great advice. I initially looked at one of Allanah's BB files, but the melody had too many grace notes.
What I should have done was simply setup the desired framework of the song in Allanah's mgu file and the midi file, and then just copy (or import) the midi melody into the mgu file; just didn't think of it.
Thanks.
Percy
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I'm confused. What is the "midi Chord Wizard?"
BiaB will open and play any Midi file.
The Midi file has the chords programmed in.
BiaB should display and play whatever the author of the midi file programmed in.
The Chord Wizard in BiaB is for audio files.
And its accuracy, as we've all learned, is hit and miss.
Sorry, what did I miss?
[/color
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Actually, MIDI files do not have chords programmed into them in a standard manner. The chords are not part of the MIDI standard.
When you load a MIDI file into BIAB, the chord grid you seet is actually created by the MIDI Chord Wizard. Sometimes it gets it right, sometimes it doesn't. There are often problems if the timing of the MIDI file don't align to measure boundaries (think just recording your own playing with a MIDI keyboard and not using a click-track - the MIDI file sounds right, but nothing is aligned properly).
The only caveat to this is if the MIDI file was originally created by BIAB, then it saves the chord progression in a proprietary manner that BIAB, PowerTracks, and RealBand understands.
The chord wizard for audio files is the ACW (Audio Chord Wizard).
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I'm confused. What is the "midi Chord Wizard?"
BiaB will open and play any Midi file.
The Midi file has the chords programmed in.
BiaB should display and play whatever the author of the midi file programmed in.
The Chord Wizard in BiaB is for audio files.
And its accuracy, as we've all learned, is hit and miss.
Sorry, what did I miss?
This is funny, I remember I questioned this as well several years ago. Biab and now RB are both so slick it looks like those chords must have been programmed in the midi file itself. Not so. That's all PG Music magic. Hence the name "Wizard" 
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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What really helps a lot is to do this:
1. Listen to the midi file and decide which inst. is doing the most basic chording and remember it's MIDI channel
2. Determine what channel the bass is on
3. go to File/Import chords from midi file
4. Look at all the options & set appropriately especially the box for chords & bass.
5. click "interpret Chords"
You should see a better chord sheet. Play with it awhile and you'll get good results.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Journeyman
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John,
You're tips are on the money. After re-analyzing several songs, here's a common misinterpretation I've come across when using the CW-
If I have one bar in G7 and the chordal notes include just the G triad and the 7th-- but there is one C note which is essentially a passing tone-- the CW interprets it as a G sus. Sometimes major chords even get interpreted as minor if the CW gets thrown for a loop.
Percy
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Quote:
Actually, MIDI files do not have chords programmed into them in a standard manner. The chords are not part of the MIDI standard.
Quote:
This is funny, I remember I questioned this as well several years ago. Biab and now RB are both so slick it looks like those chords must have been programmed in the midi file itself. Not so.
OK guys, you're starting to freak me out. 
If I'm using a keyboard Midi controller and play a G chord, or I'm using a Midi-capable software application and enter a G chord, neither G chord is recorded/saved in the Midi file?
If not, how would a hard or soft synth know to play the G chord later?
Last edited by FirstBassman; 10/13/10 02:18 PM.
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It plays the notes of a G chord. BIAB tells us what those notes mean.Hey it's a G chord and writes it on the chord chart.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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If you play a G-B-D on your keyboard, BIAB knows that's a G chord. If the MIDI file has a G-B-D, it knows it's a G chord. Throw in something else (like maybe the melody track is playing an E), then BIAB has to guess what it is. I understand it has some intelligence, but that E might cause it to think it's an Em7 chord. That's why you might want to leave certain instruments out of the mix to create the chord chart. BIAB is pretty good at getting it right, but it really depends on the source material. And you still have to use your brain to figure out the things that don't sound right. I'll often bring in a MIDI file, then mute the melody track, enable a BIAB style, and listen to the chord progression that resulted. Fix what's wrong, then move along with the song.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Quote:
If I'm using a keyboard Midi controller and play a G chord, or I'm using a Midi-capable software application and enter a G chord, neither G chord is recorded/saved in the Midi file?
If not, how would a hard or soft synth know to play the G chord later?
You're thinking like a musician, you have to think like a dumb computer. Your synth doesn't know from chords, it's just responding to the midi data the file is sending it. So yes, the information is there but it's not organized as chords, just binary on/off note data and other things like sustain, pitch bend, modulation, reverb etc. Open up the Event List and see, it's all there. Anything that is necessary to create the basic sound is an event. All that stuff is simply data. It took PG to go that extra step and create an algorithm to put the note information together, ignore the rest of it and call it a chord.
What is simple for a human is practically impossible for a computer in certain cases. All it is is a collection of mathematical formulas that tell it things like if the key sig is G and the notes are D, G, Bb, F then it's a Gm7 but if the key sig is Bb it's probably a Bb6 but still could be a Gm7 depending on the bass note. What would you call it if the key sig is A? Maybe a D+ sus4? Or just do the cop out and still call it a Gm7?
As you can tell, the different combinations are endless and while most of us players just "know" what something should be, a literal computer is liable to come up with anything.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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The aging MIDI Standard did not define any Chord Data.
Various different programs have, over the years, incorporated their own proprietary methods of handling that situation -- or not.
Each program that does attempt to do chords does it differently.
All in all, pgmusic's MIDI Chord Wizard is actuall still one of he best MIDI chord interpretors I've used. The mistakes will likely always come about due to whatever notes are in your target Midi file, as already mentioned. Passing notes, grace notes, etc. often end up as one of the notes used in the chord interpretation. Unless and until our PCs are able to incorporate quite a lot of Artificial Intelligence into the mix, it will be up to the human intervention to clean up those mis-identified chords.
Still, the MIDI Chord Wizard proves to be a great time-saver. If nothing else, you get the song's chord grid all laid out on the right bars instantly. Correcting chords within that grid layout is a lot faster than starting from "scratch".
--Mac
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Anyone who complains about the PG MCW needs to get a hold of a copy of Jammer. You want to talk about a jumbled up mess jammer is it.
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Quote:
You're thinking like a musician, you have to think like a dumb computer.
All it is is a collection of mathematical formulas that tell it things like if the key sig is G and the notes are D, G, Bb, F then it's a Gm7 but if the key sig is Bb it's probably a Bb6 but still could be a Gm7 depending on the bass note.
As you can tell, the different combinations are endless and while most of us players just "know" what something should be, a literal computer is liable to come up with anything.
Bob, your excellent explanation makes sense to me.
I get it now - Midi is only recording indivdual notes and not identifying them together as a chord.
Thanks!!! - Mark
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Many thanks for this discussion. It was very educational to me.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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