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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2010
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I'm not new to music or computers but this program just stumps me. i want to create a jazz guitar backing track in Bflat. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to enter a Bflat7/13 chord. the chord builder doesn't seem to list one and If I choose the 7 it wont let me choose the 13 in addition. when I try to enter it from the keyboard iget nowhere as well. I looked in the index under entering chords and all it gives is how to use a midi keyboard.
Q. where can I find a list of keyboard entry conventions, for ex. how to get a Bflat [ what key makes 'flat'] or if I do a 7 13 does the 13 go in parenthesis?
overhwhelmed in indiana, Kaeote
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I'm not new to music or computers but this program just stumps me. i want to create a jazz guitar backing track in Bflat. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to enter a Bflat7/13 chord. the chord builder doesn't seem to list one and If I choose the 7 it wont let me choose the 13 in addition. when I try to enter it from the keyboard iget nowhere as well. I looked in the index under entering chords and all it gives is how to use a midi keyboard.
Q. where can I find a list of keyboard entry conventions, for ex. how to get a Bflat [ what key makes 'flat'] or if I do a 7 13 does the 13 go in parenthesis?
overhwhelmed in indiana, Kaeote
I don't typically weight in on these "fancy chords", there are some resident experts 
But looks to me like you want a dominate 7th with the 13th - the dominate 7th is implied so you would simply typle "Bb13" - does this give you what you want? 
Check out the Index in the help memu and type Chord Entry.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi kaeote,
I'm not quite sure that I understand the notation you are using. It seems to be a hybrid format. Do you mean a Bb7 with added 13th (that is, Bb-D-F-Ab-G) or do you mean a Bb13 (Bb-D-F-Ab-C-Eb-G)? In many situations, Bb13 is played using characteristic notes as Ab-D-G over a Bb bass. What notes were you wanting the chord to play?
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I believe the 13 implies the 7. Try Bb13.
You probably missed the other chords available in the Chord Builder. There is a dropdown box there that has many more chords. It is a the bottom center just above the Play button.
For keyboard shortcuts, check the manual under 'Keyboard Shortcuts' pg 321. For a chord list, pg 532. There are also available in the BIAB Help.
R
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The way you have this written, Bb7/13, indicates you want a Bb7 chord with the 13th as the bass. So you would enter that as Bb7/G. If this is not the chord then your choices are Bb7 or Bb13. I do not believe you can use the chord Bb7add13 in BiaB with out using a sequencer and adding the G, but I’m not at my music computer to check that out.
I hope this helps.
Last edited by MarioD; 11/07/10 06:58 AM.
Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer.
It's called the Heineken Maneuver.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
....there are some resident experts
What did I tell you?  Oh and by the why welcome to the Forum
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi kaeote and welcome to BAIB and the forum. No better topic around here than cipherin' chords. If this is your biggest newbie problem, you're doing pretty good. First, to be clear, I suggest you spell out exactly what you want. I think by Bb7/13 you want Bb D F Ab G (no 9th or 11th). It looks like the chord builder does not have that explicit spelling, and when I play Bb D F Ab G on my keyboard and ask BIAB wghat I played, it says Bb13. And when I play Bb D F Ab C G ist says the same. So if that is what you want, you may have to take the 9th with it. Do check out the chord builder so see all the variations.
I think it is not the case that a Bb7/13 indicates you want a Bb7 chord with the 13th in the base . We (and BIAB) use what are called slash chords, and if you wanted the 13 in the base you specify Bb7/G. That could be called a Gm7b9. A Bb13 would technically be Bb D F Ab C Eb G, although the Eb (11th) is usually omitted.
So - spell out your chord for us and someone will give you best BIAB answer.
Regards,
kelso
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I guess I'll add what I know about this subject. If we are talking about creating a Bb13th chord, then my understanding of chord structure is that the dominant 7th must be stated somewhere when playing the 13th note, otherwise what you are playing is a Bb6th. Normally any of the 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths should have the dominate 7th heard somewhere to "legitimze" the chord, although as a guitar player I have played a simple 6th chord and gotten away with it. When creating some of those chords that require 10 fingers on the fretting hand, I build from a "shell" chord (root, 3rd,7th) many times leaving out the root if there is another instrument (bass) playing that note. A Bb7/13 chord although unusually noted, would as others have stated be a Bb dominant 7th with a G in the bass. Hope this helps. DennisD
PS to John C thanks for noticing my 100th post
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
PS to John C thanks for noticing my 100th post
Dennis, you have to let people now - don't be shy 100 is a milestone  . At 1000 you get to join the private club, secret handshakes and prizes
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Kaeote, you asked how to write a flat in BIAB. It's lowercase B on the keyboard.
All the rest has been explained well, but I'll just add a quick tip for anyone reading this thread: When you talk about intervals above an octave, just subtract 7 to find the pitch. A 9th is the same as a 2, an 11th a 4, and a 13th is the same pitch as a 6.
From your last sentence, it does appear that you are looking for a Bb7 add 13. As mentioned, BIAB does not support this. If indeed as Mario noticed, you write a slash root format, you will get the 13th in the bass, as in Bb13/G.
Again for anyone who might not know, a 13th chord has a distinctive sound because it has both the 6th and 7th, which are a half-step apart (although voicing the 6th as a 13th puts it up a major seventh over the dominant seventh, so it does not sound as dissonant). And I concur that a 13th implies not only that the dominant 7th is present, but also the 9th and often the 11th.
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Club!??! Secret handshake??!!? Presents!!! No one told me! 
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Quote:
Matt Finley
And I concur that a 13th implies not only that the dominant 7th is present, but also the 9th and often the 11th.
I respectfully disagree.
Since I only have five fingers on my hand,  I consider a 13th chord to be a triad or dominant chord with only the 13th added.
Though an extended version 13th could have the 9th or 11th added.
And Wikipedia agrees with me:
A thirteenth chord is the stacking of six thirds, the last being above the 11th of an eleventh chord[1]. Thus a thirteenth chord is a tertian (built from thirds) chord containing the interval of a thirteenth, and is an extended chord if it includes the ninth and/or the eleventh. "The jazzy thirteenth is a very versatile chord and is used in many genres."[2] Since 13th chords tend to become unclear or confused with other chords when inverted they are generally found in root position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Club!??! Secret handshake??!!? Presents!!! No one told me!
Robh, check your spam folder, I'm sure you qualify.. Don't you see all those invites and free stuff there?
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Every book on arranging I've seen indicates that jazz terminology reads an interval in a chord name larger than a 8th to imply the 7th is present. I'm not sure even Wikipedia agrees with you: Quote:
A thirteenth chord is the stacking of six thirds
By my reckoning, that "stack of six thirds" contains a 7th. (Actually, the way the quote reads, it looks like someone edited two different ideas together).
For particular voicings you'll often drop notes. Since the 11th (not the ♯11th) clashes with the 3rd, so it's often dropped from the chord. And if you're voicing for four horns, you'll obviously have to drop out a couple of notes (typically, the root and the 11th), but still try to retain the flavor of the 13th chord. But even here, you'll almost always try to retain the 3rd and 7th - even if you drop the 13th.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Every book on arranging I've seen indicates that jazz terminology reads an interval in a chord name larger than a 8th to imply the 7th is present.
Jazz? Us folksy blues guys know nothin' about no Jazz.
As a matter of fact, I think the only song I've ever come across that had a chord with an interval above the 7th was "Spooky" which, as I recall, had a 13th chord in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spooky_(classic_song)
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As a counter-example, consider the "9" chord, has an added 7th, and an "add2" chord, which doesn't (despite editors continually writing "9" chords where they should be putting "add2"). Similarly, a "sus4" chord doesn't have a 7th, but a 11 chord does. As for "jazz" vs. "blues", I thought the rule was that blues only uses chords up to a 7th. Anything higher than that - in any musical genre - and it's automatically "jazz." Speaking of Spooky, don't forget the intro to Carole King's Only Love Is Real. Great song, but the intro is... Spooky.
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And the Wikipedia home page gives this definition:
"Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit."
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Quote:
As for "jazz" vs. "blues", I thought the rule was that blues only uses chords up to a 7th. Anything higher than that - in any musical genre - and it's automatically "jazz."
Not really. A lot of blues use a 9th chord, "Stormy Monday" to name just one.
Also a lot of jazz blues use the 13th, but is that jazz or blues? I call it blues.
Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer.
It's called the Heineken Maneuver.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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It is not a hardfast rule at all.
Typically, the caveat, "with taste" should be followed.
Which to me means, if it works, then you can do it.
And if it doesn't work, then by all means don't do it again.
Then there is the beginning Hammond Organ player who tries to make *every* dominant chord a full 13th stack, close harmony...
That is bad taste at its finest.
But give a hard listen to the man who plays rhythm guitar behind BB sometime - AND his keyboardist.
Some complex feces goin' on there.
--Mac
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Quote:
Not really. A lot of blues use a 9th chord, "Stormy Monday" to name just one.
Of course, you're right. It's just another "humor fail" on my part. 
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