|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 131
Apprentice
|
OP
Apprentice
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 131 |
Can someone please explain the 'logic' behind 'stretch tuning'?
I recently purchased a Roland piano, and cannot use the upper 2 octaves because it is stretched tuned...
The individual notes in these octaves are out of tune with the ones below...
An 'E' sounds more like an 'F', and so on.... and if I play these notes within a solo, it sounds like I'm making mistakes...
This makes no sense to me - I hope someone can enlighten me here....
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
For some people, stretch tuning sounds more natural. It rarely ever sounds like notes are out of place. I would guess that someone has mucked up the tuning way past typical stretch tuning. You really shouldn't notice it as wrong notes, just a different timbre to the instrument.
I'm guessing that you can reset this to a lesser amount. Do you have the manual for the Roland? If not, there are web resources for some Roland products that will allow you to download the manual. The HP 245 model allows you to turn the stretch tuning on and off, and I'm guessing there are some that allow you to vary the degree of 'stretch'.
-Scott
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,179
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,179 |
This is my (very) basic understanding of the logic in laymen's terms-
Let's say you play a 'C' on piano an octave below middle C
Now if all the strings are perfectly in tune on that note, it would ring certain harmonics.
One of those harmonics is the C two octaves up. In a perfectly tuned piano (only possible theoretically) that C two octaves up would simpley re-inforce the harmonics of the lower C when you played them both; it wouldn't be a distinctive note but would quickly vanish into the harmonics. Not totally but significantly. Each note has many harmonics so the problem would compound.
Throw it out of tune just a hair and you can easily notice it.
If you throw it out of tune by making it flat it will be annoying. Throw it out of tune a little sharp and it fits much better.
That's the 'stretch' part (as I understand it). The higher you go up on the piano the more it is adjusted (sharp) to be distinguishable from the lower harmonics.
Hopefully someone else has more info.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Quote:
The individual notes in these octaves are out of tune with the ones below...
An 'E' sounds more like an 'F', and so on.... and if I play these notes within a solo, it sounds like I'm making mistakes...
This makes no sense to me - I hope someone can enlighten me here....
Thanks.
If the notes are THAT much sharper, I doubt if it is due to Stretch Tuning.
In the Stretch, the E 2 octaves above middle C would only be a beat or two sharper than the E directly above middle C. Certainly nowhere near an F.
Something else is wrong here, or possibly there is an internal setting that allows for custom stretches that has been somehow toggled WAY off the beaten path.
An easy way to put today's keyboards back onto the beaten path is the System Reset. The dreaded User Manual usually explains how to perform the Reset back to factory defaults.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 131
Apprentice
|
|
OP
Apprentice
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 131 |
Here is Roland's response to my question:
"Stretch Tuning" is the default tuning for most Roland digital piano and keyboard products. Roland applies this setting to our products because stretch tuning is the accepted tuning method used to tune acoustic pianos.
Some of our products have the option of adjusting the amount of stretch tuning or turning stretch tuning off. Other Roland products, including the FP-4, do not have those options. These options, or lack of options, are per the specifications of each individual product."
I can grasp the concept of making the upper notes SLIGHTLY different from the lower ones (harmonics and all) but it seems Roland has 'stretched' this concept to the point that the notes sound 'out of tune'.... Unfortunately I own the FP-4, and have to live with their lack of 'options'...
Thanks....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Again:
I know of NO stretch tune that would turn an E into "almost an F".
Something else is wrong here, might even be a hardware fault in need of repair.
But it is not any sort of standard stretch tuning. Not with that large of a stretch.
It *might* be that the way they did the stretch is broken, though, would take a trip to the uthorized service center test bench to correct.
Whatever the reason, what you've described cannot be proper operation.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 131
Apprentice
|
|
OP
Apprentice
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 131 |
"Whatever the reason, what you've described cannot be proper operation."
I agree Mac... when I first noticed it after a few days at home with the new piano, I went to Guitar Center and Sam Ash, and played the FP4s that were on display, and it was exactly the same as mine.... so yeah - who ever at Roland designed this really screwed up.... and to not even put in an option to change it was ridiculous....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021 |
A couple of Forum posts. So I am also thinking about a Roland FP4 and a Kawai ES6. A Roland FP4 seems really good, though I'm concerned about just one little aspect: I notice that it has an equal flat temperament but no equal stretched temperament as on the Kawais. I would have thought an equal stretched temperament was essential for a grand piano sound. Can anyone confirm if this is true and if it matters? You can access the FP4 owners manual at: http://www.roland.com/products/en/FP-4/But you're right, it doesn't seem to have stretch tuning. This isn't strictly necessary, but it's a nice feature. Acoustics use it, because they sound a little more balanced that way. Personally, I prefer the touch on the ES-6 anyway. You might also try out Kawai's other portable instruments, the MP-5 and MP-8. These are sold in music shops and require an external amp and speakers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333 |
On page 79 and 80 of the manual it lists types of tunings.
This is in addition to the tuning to 440.
They list the following adjustments:
1. Equal
2. Just Major
3. Just Minor
4. Kimberger
5. Mean Tone
6. Pythagorean
7. Werkmeister
If you can read the manual you can change these at will.
I've used roland products for years and never had a bad one.
Unless yours is broken it should work fine.
In order to get a good grand piano sound it is my understanding that you cannot have mechanical tuning, it won't replicate it, rather you need stretch tuning.
John Conley
Musica est vita
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
dmrodes,
As I pointed out in the first response in this thread, and confirmed by others in the thread and from the Roland support staff, stretched tuning is an attempt to make the piano sound more natural. Your manual should tell you how to do this - John points out that in the FP-4 manual you have several different flavors of temperments and tunings to pick from.
It appears that the Roland support person didn't do their homework. It wouldn't be the first time a support jockey didn't know all of their products intimately.
But it does appear that you can choose from several different tuning settings; some of which probably sound quite wonky and why they are not used any longer for modern music. Some of those temperments are usable only in certain keys. Check to see what your FP-4 is set to - I would set it to Equal temperment. You probably will like that one.
-Scott
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333 |
I wish I had an equal temperment.
The best one today, in a Canuck football game the genius in the booth on hearing the whistle and realizing there is a clock problem says,
"The officials are going to commiserate and decide what to do about the clock".
English is indeed dying small cut by small cut.
But I have laughed of and on for hours.
"Gentlemen, shall we commiserate?
John Conley
Musica est vita
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!
It's not too late to upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® and save! We've extended our special until August 15, 2025!
We've added many major new features to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, including advanced AI tools like the amazing BB Stem Splitter and AI Lyrics Generator, as well as VST3 plugin support, and Equalize Temp. Plus, there’s a new one-stop MIDI Patches Picker with over 1,100 MIDI patches to choose from, all neatly categorized by GM numbers. The MultiPicker Library is enhanced with tabs for the SongPicker, MIDI Patch Picker, Chord Builder, AI Lyrics Generator, and Song Titles Browser, and the tabs are organized into logical groups. The Audiophile Edition is enhanced with FLAC files , which are 60% smaller than AIFF files while maintaining identical audio quality, and now ships on a fast 1TB SSD, and much more!
Check out all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® here:
Purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac during our special to save up to 50% off your upgrade purchase and receive a FREE BONUS PAK of amazing new Add-ons. These include the 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK, Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana, Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes, MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano, Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7, Playable RealTracks Set 4, RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark, and more!
Upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and add 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and 20 RealStyles, FLAC Files for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks, Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster, MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster, Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8, and RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe.
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!
New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2025!
We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!
Rock & Pop (Sets 456–461):
This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!
Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums58
Topics84,442
Posts779,256
Members39,661
| |
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean