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Open debate per title.

A. background.
Year after year on various recording forums the “elephant in the room’ is often the new user setting up a project studio getting frustrated with setting up the correct settings needed in order for the sound device to work well with their chosen music software.
Ive seen it on lots of different forums…..thus long threads ensue….and a ton of frustration often.
One sees it often every year on these pg forums too.

For some time now ive been pondering how best to help a new user who encounters set up problems…cos often the software is blamed whereas the real issue is... correctly
choosing not only a good sound interface with good low latency drivers , but also setting up things correctly in the daw software…in this case pg software.

Thus i offer up some ideas for wider debate….so please feel free to debate/discuss/offer up your own ideas cos at some point even the most experienced user was a novice.

B. Some ideas.
i think it might be useful to have a new forum called something like ‘the settings forum’. Where new people encountering problems can be directed to and which includes...
ACTUAL PICTURES of peoples settings that WORK….in 4 main areas that sometimes give probs.

1.Biab settings pics.
2.Realband settings pics.
3.Windows settings pics for both recording and playback…and finally
4.Pics of The sound device settings/user control panel as a lot of usb audio interfaces now have pretty sophisticated user control apps with many settings often.
(obviously above pics would not show just audio settings but also midi).

Ie what i’m struggling with is…the best way to help the new user.
Rharv made a good point to me in that there so many different combos of settings not just in windows but also in music software.

Are there any better approaches ? than giving new users tried and true solutions
And templates that work per above ?

I now invite other folks thoughts to how to solve this ‘very difficult elephant in the room’
and ‘conundrum’.
Of course one bugaboo i see possibly is would users be willing to spend some time posting pics of their recording rig settings that work ?

as they say in any debating room at oxford “i open it up to the floor’...lol

Best
om

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 03/19/22 02:55 PM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
Help! Tech S.O.S (Off topic)
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BIAB needs a knowledge base.

It actually has one – https://www.pgmusic.com/techfaq66.htm – but it's hopelessly inadequate, having just 81 questions when there should be thousands.

One shouldn't have to search through forum threads to find answers that may or may not be correct.

PG staff should be creating new KB entries every day in the course of doing their jobs.

PS – Please no all caps.

Last edited by Mark Hayes; 03/19/22 03:23 AM.
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Good points, but as Rharv has said there are so many different combos of settings.

I suggest a new forum called something like Help Setting up My System where people have a central location for help. The intro data could read something like please list your computer cpu, ram, external peripherals (Hard drives, sound cards etc) etc as this would help us solve your issues. This should eliminate the multi-forum problem, just giving users and PGM a central help forum.

However I would be against the picture idea. All it would take is an update to make the pictures obsolete.

YMMV


Why is it that the people who tell me to calm down are the ones who tick me off in the first place!

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Thanks a good idea Mario! Help with My Settings or Initial Setup Questions.

Jeff


Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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We have too many forums now. I assist people in this one. It’s Help! Tech S. O. S. and I think it can work for the kind of questions being discussed here. Tips and Tricks is another existing place for tutorials.


BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Mario.
I like your suggestions ,as always.. particularly this…
‘The intro data could read something like please list your computer cpu, ram, external peripherals (Hard drives, sound cards etc) etc as this would help us solve your issues. ‘
WITH the addition of the following…
1.your Biab settings pics.
2.your Realband settings pics.
3.your Windows settings pics for both recording and playback…and finally
4.Pics of your sound device settings/user control panel settings.

Here's my argument WHY…
If we dont know the persons various current settings the person providing help including pg support is “flying blind”...and the provider of help is , i would argue, guessing.

What i often ponder , and ive seen this on various forums includeing pg...is…a person requests help ,...
then on being asked for full settings/pics by folks trying to help… then the originator of the help request is often not heard from again. So why ask for help ?
Its a situation ive seen many times. Very strange.

Happiness.
om

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 03/19/22 09:17 AM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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"then on being asked for full settings/pics by folks trying to help… then the originator of the help request is often not heard from again. So why ask for help ?"

That request may be beyond their means of knowing how to do on the forum.. or make them uncomfortable .. or they decide it isn't worth it (sadly)
we're all just trying to help, but sometimes people decide they don't want/need it that bad to go thru the effort

Also, I have a friend in Chicago that instead of asking for help here went to the manufacturer support .. it worked out in the long run, so lots of reasons people may pursue different routes


Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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Rharv.

its a very difficult topic obviously which is one reason i started this thread to get peoples opinions/ideas.
and to try and address the elephant in the proverbial project studio room.

frankly rharv i laud you for over the years often going out of your way to help people in both the ptw and rb
forums. its very difficult to help people with probs that dont (for some reason) post pics of their settings.

best
om

ps mark hayes , but will new users take the time to peruse an amended/upgraded knowledge base ?



Last edited by justanoldmuso; 03/19/22 03:00 PM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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The biggest problem tends to be age and zero experience with digital audio and many times no computer experience either. Not everyone of course but the majority I think. You read all the time, "HELP, I finally retired, been playing music for years but never had time to get into home recording." You ask are you good with a PC and they say, not really. You already used several terms, latency, DAW for example that many new users do not know or understand so now you're in a position of giving someone a really basic definition of terms and minimum specs for a PC before you can even get started with explaining setup configs. This is why it can be better for them if they went to the company who sold the interface or whatever because they usually have a great tutorial explaining the basics. You know the old joke, the coach calls a meeting with a losing team and says we're gonna start at the beginning....This is a football.

So many threads here start with all that and it can go for pages and pages then as was said, they suddenly disappear and a bunch of us wind up talking to ourselves.

And yes, PG should be one of those good companies who publish a detailed tutorial about computers, Midi, DAWS, latency, what is digital audio, why certain things are so important, etc, etc. With that all we should do is point nooby's to that with instructions to read it then come back.

Bob


Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
but will new users take the time to peruse an amended/upgraded knowledge base?

If that's where the answers are, yes. A KB entry with a simple, specific Q & A that fills the screen and tells them "change 24 to 48" is infinitely better than finding the answer buried in a long thread between potentially hostile parties.

Last edited by Mark Hayes; 03/19/22 03:31 PM.
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My suggestion to help new users with correct settings would be to recommend they return the interface they purchased and replace it with a quality stand alone, digital multi track recorder from Zoom or Tascam No latency, interface settings, crashes, deep menus, hours of setup and troubleshooting.

They can have recorded their first song in an hour. There’s no steep learning curve and it will last for years and will never become obsolete.

Best of all, they come with complete step by step instructional manuals with pictures, arrows circles, etc.


BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Extract the Installation and set-up stuff from the manual into a dedicated document.

Within that have a "recommended/quick setup that usually works for most systems".

Then go on to the tuning and adjustments that may be needed to get the best out of BiaB/RB, giving both what the many setting allow to be made, but also what they mean and how to use them.

Leave more white-space around things so the reader can better tell where one thing ends and another begins.

A troubleshooting section.


Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts
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Gordon.

I really like the ideas in your post.
Frankly i have to be fair to pg in that my install of 2022 upak went as smooth as a Babys ……after i backed up the upak drive in case the drive ever went on the blink.

2022 install gave me no hassles including the fact my audient interface was recognised Off the bat and i was making songs in short order in biab and rb....right off the bat.

So no install complaints here. BUT it might be that i’m very careful that win sound devices are correctly set up. Because i’m sure that the pg installers prolly look what a users default sound device is…by default.

(Only things i would liked to have seen are added users features like slowing down the acw, F5 including utility traks in bb, and a spleeter feature built in…
But all those are for another day….and ive asked pg for these..etc)

Thus overall no complaints from me re 2022.
I think one of many reasons that new users might have probs is the users sound device is not installed properly/settings in win which prolly creates probs for the pg installers ….thus probs ensue.

Best
om
ps i changed to non caps but it seems the forum software
has different ideas...lol.

Last edited by justanoldmuso; 03/20/22 06:39 AM.

New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
My suggestion to help new users with correct settings would be to recommend they return the interface they purchased and replace it with a quality stand alone, digital multi track recorder from Zoom or Tascam No latency, interface settings, crashes, deep menus, hours of setup and troubleshooting.

They can have recorded their first song in an hour. There’s no steep learning curve and it will last for years and will never become obsolete.

Best of all, they come with complete step by step instructional manuals with pictures, arrows circles, etc.




My recommendation would be to look at the damn documentation. Every interface you buy comes with a "complete step by step instructional manual with pictures, arrows circles, etc."

If someone won't RTFM for the interface they bought, what makes you think they'll read the one for their standalone digital recorder?

It boggles my mind that people are so resistant to availing themselves if the documentation that is provided for their benefit.

It also boggles my mind how in 2022 someone can not have basic computer literacy.


Byron Dickens

BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency.

https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso
Gordon.

I really like the ideas in your post.
Frankly i have to be fair to pg in that my install of 2022 upak went as smooth as a Babys ……

As I think it should much of the time, hence my "recommended/quick setup that usually works for most systems".


Originally Posted By: justanoldmuso

Thus overall no complaints from me re 2022.
I think one of many reasons that new users might have probs is the users sound device is not installed properly/settings in win which prolly creates probs for the pg installers ….thus probs ensue.

Though the fact that you felt the thread was worth starting indicates that things are not quite as they should be.

There are several places where things can go awry and that's why I think a second area with more in-depth information can help. In a time when most Windows installations are 64-bit, push the 32-bit a jBridge stuff to a section expressly for 32-bit users ... don't stick it in the middle as a distraction, use a hyperlink and page+line reference or similar to it.

I presume there's some reason why PGM don't just set up VSTSynthFont64 rather than CoyoteWT as a default, at least on 64-bit systems, but it's there in the manual
"""
... allows you to use the VSTSynthFont64 as the General MIDI synth.
"""
Um, OK, should I do that? Is that better or do I do it only if CoyoteWT doesn't work? What's a GM soundfont or DLS file? (I noticed recently that even some very experienced BiaB users weren't sure what gm.dls was).

"Alternate Patch Maps" ... here in the bit where new users are just trying to get things installed and working? Are you sure? Ditto "General MIDI 2" really.

"Audio Setup" starts OK-ish (it tells you how to get there, though a bit back-to-front), but then drops "(WAS/MME/ASIO)" onto the reader with no warning or explanation. The second sentence is probably what most people want to know, but I'm already worrying about WAS/MME/ASIO and is that important? What does it mean? It does go on to explain a little, but surely this is a matter for more advanced users and/or trouble-shooting?

Part of the difficulty here is that this manual, like an awful lot of manuals, is driver more by what's on a particular menu or dialog than by what the user is likely to be trying to achieve.

One of my personal irritations with so many manuals is that one can search for keywords for something, find it, but then not easily be able to find out exactly how one get to the settings. Oftentimes one has to go backwards through pages and pages of irrelevant stuff to find out how to get to it. There's a lot to be said for each section having the route to it right there at the top of the section. Of course that's tricky when, as with BiaB, there are sometimes many ways to get to the same place.

There's a very important question that, when I ask it, I am so often astounded by the fluster and confusion that I see. "Who is the target audience for this document (or this part of the document)?". It's shocking how often people don't know, or simply answer "The Customer", without really understanding what that means.


Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts
BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
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charlie's advice to buy a hardware recorder seems a bit extreme. in it's simplest form, with a little set up that's what RealBand emulates. and no hardware recorder will produce a track like BIAB does.

and although things get more and more complex, new users need to know the difference between audio and midi and how their interface works with windows and BIAB/RB. we get regular queries that show new users simply don't understand what midi is and how sounds are produced.

perhaps the most useful thing would be a flow diagram with yes/no options that takes someone through the set up and their first recording/project. and let's not forget that many users will just use BIAB to generate backing tracks and never record anything.

Last edited by Bob Calver; 03/20/22 09:29 AM.
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Specific to PG Music installs there is a recurring issue of a new user not understanding the four installation choices and selecting the wrong one.


Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK
DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8
Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD
Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD
Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Byron.
Good points. I’d like a dollar for every time in the world a computer manager would silently scream in his office bout end users not RTFM…i’d be rich…lol.
I saw it all the time in places i worked. Drove the techs nuts after spending mega on fancy manuals and presentations etc that were easily digested.

All.
One thing that impressed me about the new audient interface i got a year ago was ...
The little card that came with it.
On one side 3 step install , very simple , and on tother side how to set up the intelligent smartgain feature.
After a year of use i’m still impressed, particularly with the drivers.
What i’m trying to say is the little card that came with the device was a great example of how to make things easy for a new user to quickly use the device.

Best
om


New Song "PRETTY GIRL" for my wife...Dec 2023
(my vocs....mixed for good earbuds.)
https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs/prettygirlrbfinalcalfsongsdec2023mp3
(and rock song THE STALLION and bluegrass song... BANKER MAN....90 songs useing bb/rb.)
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Here are my 2 cents on this subject.

Because BiaB and RB are plenty complex in their own rights, new and not so new users will need help at some point. Add in various DAWs, plugins, operating systems, interfaces, etc. and you have multi-dimensional complexity that changes over time as new releases of hardware and software become available.

The current forum-based help system is useful but not particularly efficient as the postings are difficult and tedious to search. This requires duplicate solutions to be written by those in the know every time a similar question is re-asked. At times I notice these users make various incorrect assumptions that can easily get amplified and re-amplified by others until a poor signal to noise ratio is reached; sometimes resulting in the original question being obscured.

Because of this and other things the half-life of the information transmitted in this way is on the order of a few days rather than months or years. Put another way, no matter how well intentioned the answer to a call for help may be, if it’s “expiration date” is close to that of bananas bought at your local grocery store then there was wasted effort in creating it in the first place; valuable effort that could have been used in refining a more durable solution.

An improvement to this could be achieved if the communicated solutions, tips, insights and knowledge were somehow first vetted for accuracy, kept focused on the subject and then made more permanent.

Think "one and done" or "develop the wheel just once and share what you developed".

One way to increase the half-life of the information is to store it in a series of downloadable “How-To” files rather than re-invent it every time a similar question is asked. I would suggest files in PDF format for this. These files could contain a descriptive title, a file number, the solution on how to do what the user is struggling with and supporting weblinks. We are visual creatures so annotated screenshots should be used where appropriate.

So when a user posts a call for help, he/she can be quickly directed to a solution that has been vetted thereby eliminating the need for much off-topic chit chat, spider webs or rabbit holes.

Here is what I envision:
Joe New User: “Hello, just installed BiaB 2023 on a Windows 12 desktop and I can’t figure out how to add horn shots to a track.”

Fred on the Forum: “Hi Joe, there are a couple documented ways to do this. Go to xyz weblink and look at the following files.
A-3012 – How to add horn shots with external MIDI
A-3013 – How to add horn shots with internal MIDI

Joe New User: “Thanks Fred, A-3012 is most appropriate for me but I’m stuck on Step #4.”

Fred on the Forum: “Hi Joe, yes, I wrote A-3012 and I realize that Step #4 is confusing. I’ll fix it and have it vetted.”

Joe New User: “Fred, your updated document worked and I’m off and running, thanks.”

In order to properly organize the files, some thought should go into a document numbering system; any librarians or data scientists on the forum may have good ideas here. For example, the “A” in my above example could indicate Apple with “W” for Windows. Or “A” for BiaB and “B” for RealBand . . . you get the idea.

Some How-To files could be intentionally high-level with little detail while others could be at the micro level.

I have contributed to such a How-To system for a large complex mathematical/programming software environment in industry that was successfully used by scientists, engineers and programmers. The key is to vet the information for accuracy and organize it for easy search and retrievability.

Just my 2 cents.


https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677
BiaB 2024 Windows
For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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OK here is my 2 cents and I'll probably get called on some of it.

1- A lot of manuals are written from the coders' perspective and not from a user's perspective. When I was writing Standard Operating Procedures I had to gorilla proof them; that is take them to someone not from that area and have them try them out. You can learn a lot about writing that way.

2-Google/Bing is your friend. Many do not want to or do not know how to look up information on the web. Just keep typing using different words/terminology until you find what you need.

3-Some people want to be spoon fed in lieu of doing a little research.

4-Some want to do things that BiaB was not intended to do. Its an accompaniment generating software. Its not a DAW or notation program. PGM tries hard to accommodate all but their last few new features were not ready for prime time and that confuses everyone

5-The PGM manual is very confusing, see #1.

6-MIDI is not audio and going away from general MIDI is a learning curve. Do some research first.

We are very fortunate to have a lot of friendly people willing to help here but sometimes I think they get taken advantage of.

If you are going into computer based music you must first know about your computer, then your software,and then your sound card in order to produce music. PGM makes it very simple to get great sounding backing tracks via RTs but that is the only simple thing to learn for someone new.

YMMV


Why is it that the people who tell me to calm down are the ones who tick me off in the first place!

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Mr. Mario,

You keep speaking of this MIDI. What is it? Is it a note that sits in the middle of another note on a Real Track?

If so, how do I change it?

Also, if I have a wind controller, do I open up my front door to get some wind in before I use it? How do I get that wind into Band-in-a-Box??

Also I have heard you say you don't use real tracks. If not, what kind of track are you using? A fake track? Or maybe an invisible track?? Is it an invisible track in Logic? I am looking but I can't find it.

Also, who makes Band-in-a-Box and why did they make it?

If you can write a full reply to all of my questions I would appreciate it.

Thanks, I will sit here and wait while you type.

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Originally Posted By: David Snyder
If you can write a full reply to all of my questions I would appreciate it.

I think the answer is probably 42.


Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40.
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It has always been my belief that if you want the best out of something one needs to learn about it. I used to read manuals from cover to cover (spent a lot of my working life doing just that). In the case of BIAB the manual is way too large and is very detailed. The trick then becomes to know how to find what you’re looking for.

The really good thing is that PG provide really good videos on most aspects of their product but if you want to get the best out of them you need to look at them.

There is also any amount of really great assistance in the forums but once again you need to read it and/or ask questions. Once again it is about learning stuff.

The issue as I see it for a number of folk they want the answer before they know the question. Impatience is what really slows down the learning for a lot of folks. To learn something as huge as BIAB takes a lot of time. To learn the ins and outs of music production takes even more time.

No single resource can provide all the answers. The best thing in my opinion is to come to know what you want to know. Ask the question and try things and not get upset when it doesn’t work first go. Sometimes one needs to try and try then try again.

I have backing tracks I was happy with years ago then play them again and find something that needs tweaking. Why because I’ve learnt a lot more over the past few years. I think most of us continue to learn. It requires patience.

My two bobs worth

Tony

Last edited by Teunis; 03/21/22 12:20 PM.

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Originally Posted By: David Snyder

Mr. Mario,

You keep speaking of this MIDI. What is it? Is it a note that sits in the middle of another note on a Real Track?

If so, how do I change it?


No it is not a note in the middle of another note. It means My Interesting Diverse Instruments.

Originally Posted By: David Snyder

Also, if I have a wind controller, do I open up my front door to get some wind in before I use it? How do I get that wind into Band-in-a-Box??


No, you do not need to open doors all you need is a lot of hot air. To get wind into Band-in-a-Box just blow very hard into the hard drive.


Originally Posted By: David Snyder

Also I have heard you say you don't use real tracks. If not, what kind of track are you using? A fake track? Or maybe an invisible track?? Is it an invisible track in Logic? I am looking but I can't find it.


In place of Real Tracks I use Deer Tracks. You are probably looking for them in in the wrong places.


Originally Posted By: David Snyder

Also, who makes Band-in-a-Box and why did they make it?


The elves in some northern country makes it. They made it so I can use it and complain about it.

Originally Posted By: David Snyder

If you can write a full reply to all of my questions I would appreciate it.

Thanks, I will sit here and wait while you type.



I hope I didn't make you wait to long.


Why is it that the people who tell me to calm down are the ones who tick me off in the first place!

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Wait....

Is tech support there???

Does Kent still work there??

Help!!

How can I turn on my computer????

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Originally Posted By: Gordon Scott
I think the answer is probably 42.

Incorrect, it's 37. Has to be a prime number. grin




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Originally Posted By: MarioD
OK here is my 2 cents and I'll probably get called on some of it.

1- A lot of manuals are written from the coders' perspective and not from a user's perspective. When I was writing Standard Operating Procedures I had to gorilla proof them; that is take them to someone not from that area and have them try them out. You can learn a lot about writing that way.



Fair point about the documentation. Sometimes it is poorly written or otherwise inadequate.

I'm looking at YOU, Ford, and your service literature with BS colored drawings and NO explanatory text!

Sometimes, there are things in the documentation that are just plain wrong. Still, this should be the first place you look. One can always seek clarification.

More often than not, the documentation is correct.


Originally Posted By: MarioD
2-Google/Bing is your friend. Many do not want to or do not know how to look up information on the web. Just keep typing using different words/terminology until you find what you need.


The problem with internet searches is that you often find information that is outdated, misleading or outright wrong. At least by going to the documentation first you have a fighting chance.

Originally Posted By: MarioD
3-Some people want to be spoon fed in lieu of doing a little research.

Yep. And that's the problem. 99.9% of basic questions could be answered by spending 15 minutes with the documentation. Instead of signing up for the forum, asking the same question that has been asked 1000 times before and waiting perhaps days for a response that may or may not be correct.

Originally Posted By: MarioD
4-Some want to do things that BiaB was not intended to do. Its an accompaniment generating software. Its not a DAW or notation program. PGM tries hard to accommodate all but their last few new features were not ready for prime time and that confuses everyone.


Originally Posted By: MarioD
5-The PGM manual is very confusing, see #1.


Originally Posted By: MarioD
6-MIDI is not audio and going away from general MIDI is a learning curve. Do some research first.


You are absolutely correct. And this brings us back to the spoon-feeding part.

Originally Posted By: MarioD
We are very fortunate to have a lot of friendly people willing to help here but sometimes I think they get taken advantage of.


I have a general rule of not helping those who won't help themselves.

Originally Posted By: MarioD
If you are going into computer based music you must first know about your computer, then your software,and then your sound card in order to produce music. PGM makes it very simple to get great sounding backing tracks via RTs but that is the only simple thing to learn for someone new.

YMMV


Yep. One wonders how someone could expect to learn how to play guitar without learning how to tune it or learning some scales & chords.

Last edited by Byron Dickens; 03/22/22 08:13 AM.

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Thanx Byron for backing me up. It is nice to know that others have the same opinions as I have on this issue.


Why is it that the people who tell me to calm down are the ones who tick me off in the first place!

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Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
My suggestion to help new users with correct settings would be to recommend they return the interface they purchased and replace it with a quality stand alone, digital multi track recorder from Zoom or Tascam No latency, interface settings, crashes, deep menus, hours of setup and troubleshooting.

They can have recorded their first song in an hour. There’s no steep learning curve and it will last for years and will never become obsolete.

Best of all, they come with complete step by step instructional manuals with pictures, arrows circles, etc.


The problem I find is most people don't read the instruction manuals, or look at the pictures etc. I have tried to help people in person before. I ask them where the manual is for their equipment and I get a deer in the headlights look. There is a manual? Sure, sometimes, most times now, it is a pdf from the web site. Not too many printed manuals anymore. The manufacturer's web site usually has good videos too. Just like PG Music does.

I find the BIAB manual a little obtuse. That's just me. It should be way more helpful. Sometimes a picture would be very helpful and it does not have one. It sometimes calls menu items or buttons by names that are not actually what they are called in the program which can be really confusing and I have been using BIAB since it was on floppy disks way back.

Last edited by etcjoe; 03/22/22 10:00 AM.

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The idea of creating vetted libraries is a good idea. I'm a natural pessimist though so I worry that creating, editing, vetting and maintaining such a library would quickly prove exhausting to those that choose to participate. While I'm not a fan of big tech but Google offers online file storage and online editing tools.

Question to the other posters, when you say the Band-in-a-Box manual is obtuse do you mean the older format (17.9 MB and 449 pages) full version, the newer (8.4 MB and 152 pages) essentials format or both?

Do you know the Table of Content and Index entries are hyperlinks? PG Music started this several years ago at the request of several forum members.


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<" The problem I find is most people don't read the instruction manuals, or look at the pictures etc. I have tried to help people in person before. I ask them where the manual is for their equipment and I get a deer in the headlights look." >

I agree and it seems to be a common thread throughout this particular discussion. Of course there's also the issue of novices not understanding computers, interfaces, Windows, Asio drivers and the difference between MIDI and audio.

It's true helpers are at a loss when a person has an issue and doesn't provide any information other than it's a computer, and some kind of 'thing' that supposed to have a microphone connection so it will record to his computer and BIAB tracks.

It's different if someone were to post a problem with perhaps, a Tascam DP-24. No problem. No manual necessary, no specs are necessary. That person's DP-24 is the same as everyone else's DP-24. Same hardware, same firmware, same specs, same screen, same OS, same editing features and the same knobs, buttons, switches, inputs, outputs and routing. So anyone familiar with that device can help and have that user up and running in minutes.

These hardware devices are ideally suited and work extremely well with a program like BIAB that's generating high quality tracks to work with.


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Just one observation.

Anyone who has spent five minutes around "high-creatives" knows they are apt to throw instruction manuals into the air and scream if they have to search for an answer to their question for more than five seconds. Patience would not be the first word that comes to mind.

As in: "I just want to record my song!! Where is the big green button!!"

A lot of the manual wording choices and even videos are made for techies and are written in techie speak and move really fast in places.

The very best songwriters I have ever met really struggle with technology at times.

I struggled with some aspects of BIAB as a newbie in 2014 myself and people at PG and many on this forum helped me a lot.

When I finally figured it all out, I realized there were only about 10 things I really needed to master, and after that I was off to the races.

I have tried many times to return to the favor with people who helped me with technology, by helping them with the more ephemeral aspects of their songs. And it worked. So, all of us have areas where we are stronger, I guess.

smile


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Originally Posted By: David Snyder
Just one observation.

Anyone who has spent five minutes around "high-creatives" knows they are apt to throw instruction manuals into the air and scream if they have to search for an answer to their question for more than five seconds. Patience would not be the first word that comes to mind.

As in: "I just want to record my song!! Where is the big green button!!"

A lot of the manual wording choices and even videos are made for techies and are written in techie speak and move really fast in places.

The very best songwriters I have ever met really struggle with technology at times.

I struggled with some aspects of BIAB as a newbie in 2014 myself and people at PG and many on this forum helped me a lot.

When I finally figured it all out, I realized there were only about 10 things I really needed to master, and after that I was off to the races.

I have tried many times to return to the favor with people who helped me with technology, by helping them with the more ephemeral aspects of their songs. And it worked. So, all of us have areas where we are stronger, I guess.

smile



Im definitely not in the 'highly creative' category but eo much of the above applies to me.
I still use an old, old DAW that has the equivalent of the Big Green Button. Its biggest drawback is to have to render the tracks in BB to 16bit 44100 and then load them into the DAW one by one. I'll live with it.
So much modern software has vast amounts of Tech for those who are Technonymphomanics (never satisfied) that its got in the way of making Music.
Sometimes I wish I could have my BB2019 back but with ALL the RTs, Extra packs etc up to present. Ah well.
But, like you I've found that I dont need 90% of BBs 'Tech' so the 10% that I know how to use successfully can be shared on our excellent Forum,who always put up with my often dumb questions.
Bests
Ian

Last edited by sixchannel; 03/25/22 04:22 AM.

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Originally Posted By: David Snyder
Just one observation.

Anyone who has spent five minutes around "high-creatives" knows they are apt to throw instruction manuals into the air and scream if they have to search for an answer to their question for more than five seconds. Patience would not be the first word that comes to mind.

As in: "I just want to record my song!! Where is the big green button!!"





So how do they master their creative endeavors? How do they learn how to play an instrument? Paint/ draw? Act?

Its not like those things come instantaneously.

"High creatives" can learn what they want to learn. Find the why and you'll find the how.

Originally Posted By: David Snyder


A lot of the manual wording choices and even videos are made for techies and are written in techie speak and move really fast in places.


It really behoves one to get a handle on the technical language involved. Technical language is important because it conveys precise meanings and ensures that everyone is talking about the same thing.


I think perhaps too many people who consider themselves "creatives" buy into the tropes and stereotypes....


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"Technical language is important because it conveys precise meanings and ensures that everyone is talking about the same thing."
These days it gets in the way of BB Creativity whatever that is, IMO. I've lost count of the 'Projects' I've lost heart with as I couldn't understand the BB Tech that went with what I was trying to do.

I always thought BB was about making Music - an easy way of creating MUSIC - not an extension of Computer Science. I don't read music, but then again many great Guitarists do not, and it doesnt get in the way of them picking up a guitar and playing.
Bests
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Originally Posted By: sixchannel
"Technical language is important because it conveys precise meanings and ensures that everyone is talking about the same thing."
These days it gets in the way of BB Creativity whatever that is, IMO. I've lost count of the 'Projects' I've lost heart with as I couldn't understand the BB Tech that went with what I was trying to do.


You're making my point for me.

Do you realize how self-contradictory your statement is?

Not understanding the language is what's getting in the way. If you learned the tech aspect, you wouldn't struggle as much and you'd be able to accomplish what you wanted - because you would understand the manual.

Can't you see that?


Originally Posted By: sixchannel

I always thought BB was about making Music - an easy way of creating MUSIC - not an extension of Computer Science.


It is about making music.

I infer from your comment that you play guitar, correct? Did you spend a great deal of time and effort in learning how to play?


Originally Posted By: sixchannel

I don't read music, but then again many great Guitarists do not, and it doesnt get in the way of them picking up a guitar and playing.
Bests
Ian


But I bet if you ask them to play an Am chord, they'd know what you're talking about.

See? Technical language at work.

Jimi Hendrix expressed regret over not knowing how to read music.

Being able to read music and understand at least the rudiments of theory opens up a world that is closed off to you otherwise.

I want you to know I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I'm trying to point out how learning the technical aspects of this stuff opens things up to you and actually frees your creativity.

I'm not any kind of "computer genius" (whatever that is) either. I just learned all this stuff because not knowing it was standing in the way of what I wanted to do. I didn't learn it overnight either; it has taken me years and I am still learning.

But because I had my "why," I found my "how."


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That was well said.
I used to be the same way, had to learn *some tech so I could effectively use that 'thing' I just spent a lot of money on (whatever it was).
While doing so I found that I enjoyed learning it (once I started) to the point that I now work in the 'tech' field. Easier on the body than building houses .. plus I enjoy it.
And it helps a lot when using software.


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I've only realised recently that there are fairly in-depth documents in the tutorials area on this, but they're all described as "no sound", and they're all a little way down the list. I also think these are troubleshooting, rather than "tutorial".

These may, I think, be a good place to send people who are having issues, as they walk through a number of tests and actions.

I do though still think that the manual should be better focussed first, perhaps pointing people there when there are problems.

Band-in-a-Box® for Windows - No Sound / MIDI Driver Setup
Band-in-a-Box® for Macintosh - No Sound / MIDI Driver Setup
RealBand for Windows - No Sound / MIDI Driver Setup

There's also one for PowerTracks.

Similar "optimising" document(s) might be worthwhile.


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This topic is obviously definitely for me then ! Sure theres lots of info, video etc etc, but i have to say all this info is all over the place. I had support on these audio connections issues, they sent me instructions for using MME, which i have to say i,ve not spoken with any one who dos use MME, PG add at the end " if your not using MME , let us know,,,,,,,,,i dont find that helpful if im honest. Why send me the wrong instructions? I understand most use ASIO? Still not successfully connected Mic or guitar as yet nor since 2019. Cant even jam with it. As i understand things, settings need to be set/ changed in the PC [ soundcard? ]and also settings within the BIAB program settings? Beyond that theres POWER management etc to get latency realy low?
Be nice to have a STEP by STEP guide.

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Never got BB to work, never been able to understand the audio settings, theres as many opinions as there are questions,So far i,ve had, " get a MAC" " Get a Scarlet" , " sell it all, your to stupid, " " dont even bother , just get an external recording device" " Heres the settings if your using MME" " Uninstal and start again" That would be my 3rd instal....................................I got BB 2019, its now 2022.
Whats ERROR 1 ? Thats a new error mssg after remote support from PG, he could,nt get my audio setting sorted either, ok so i got another newer audio interface, [ berhinger um2] if any can find the correct drivers/ instal for that i,d be grateful as it says use ASIO4ALL, but others says thats rubbish....................

PG said there is no specific answer. I,d just love to be able to plug a guitar and or mic in..................never have, never will.


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There was a trial period at the time of purchase and PG refunds without any problem during this period. Then if you really have trouble running Biab you can use any DAW and mix everything together, ie take out a BIAB project and export it to your DAW then add guitars. Obviously the computer must be configured to accept incoming sound via your interface, and that's the problem, it seems. My advice: validate your interface in Daw, once it is well configured it should also run in Biab.


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Originally Posted By: peterkirk
Never got BB to work, never been able to understand the audio settings...

That's clearly been an extraordinarily frustrating experience and I really sympathise.

My first reaction was to ask if you'd downloaded Behringer's own driver rather than ASIO4ALL, but I see that's exactly what Behringer recommend. It's a general-purpose ASIO driver and usually the manufacturer's own is best, but presumably Behringer have worked to have their device work properly with it, so I suspect that is your best option. If you've been ignoring it because everyone says it's rubbish, try it yourself. My guess though, is that you've tried it without success.

PGM are usually pretty good at support ... they don't just walk away. If you haven't yet, their on-line chat interface is well worth trying ... you do get a proper support person, not a robot and you'll get a much more direct dialogue.

For me, when these frustrations get on top of me, I'll walk away for a while ... do something else and unwind. Then when I'm ready and calm again, I'll check the support service is open, reserve myself a couple of hours to work through it, get my self a tea or coffee and, in this case, contact support via chat. Hopefully that'll get things working for you.


I'm a critic myself of some aspects of PGM, particularly some of their documentation, but they're normally good on the above. I'll defend them a little here too, though, as many of the difficulties on the Windows platform are down to the way Microsoft works, rather than PGM. Microsoft do, IMHO, tend to rather under-perform with low-level drivers and similar, meaning that manufacturers have, or at least feel the need, to write their own drivers even for standards-compliant interfaces, which most common USB devices normally are. I have some experience with using Microsoft's built-in drivers for products, so I know well how maddening they can be.


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PG , You do obviously have a BIG issue here, you seem to not ackowledge nor do anything about it, we have to rely on other people idea, instructions and various videos. Why are some people not having these problem and yet for others that all they have? I took my small studio down 2 years ago as i cannot face any more of this , £ 700 for what? Have,nt been able to explore any features on BB because of this. Beyond that much of the features lack any context.
Whats ERROR 1 btw? Thats the legacy error i now have after remote support, 3 hours that took.
Not good enough. Do you give refunds?

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Originally Posted By: peterkirk
...I took my small studio down 2 years ago as i cannot face any more of this
...Do you give refunds?

Question 1: "Taking your small studio down": Were you expecting BiaB to replace your studio? It's a genuine question. Please give a genuine answer.

Question 2: Re: "Do you give refunds?" Yes, PG Music have always offered a very generous refund:
"When you purchase ANY product directly from PG Music Inc., you are automatically covered by our 30 Day Money Back Guarantee."

I doubt any similar company would offer refunds after 2 years, but would be pleased to get your references.
However, you did purchase less than 30 days go? Yes? Did you request a refund according to their generous policy? It's also a genuine question. Please give a genuine answer.




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I will say I have not had any computer audio equipment that I have bought in the last 10 years ever not work as it said it would, not install drivers like the installer said it would and not just work. BIAB requires a minimal amount of setup to get it "working". If you have a proper interface (almost anything works) and have visited its manufacturer's website to ensure you are up to date with drivers etc. you should be able to make it work and yes, you may even have to look at the instructions. God forbid, you understand how your computer works and how your musical equipment works with it. Many google search results usually are dated so you can find out if you are looking at ancient (over a year old!) or new information.

One search for how to do I get my audio interface to work effectively in google results in 362,000,000 results and some dated April 2022. You can do the same at YouTube and find plenty of new very good videos explaining exactly what you need.

But sure, give up and blame the company that sold you the software. I am sure the 1,000s of users before you are all wrong and they just got lucky.

I had a router one time that was bricked by a manufacturer's firmware update. They would do nothing for me or even acknowledge that it caused the problem. Their answer was it was bricked, get a new one. Even with overwhelming user feedback as to the fact that it did happen to many of their users. Some enterprising person figured out how to open it up, use a simple USB plug with a few wires, jack into the system, and force feed it an older firmware that was working, then put it all in written instructions and a video. I used that router for about 5 more years after that and never did another auto update from the manufacturer.

I guess the point is, it is easy to throw in the towel. But most of the time there is a solution.

Last edited by etcjoe; 05/23/22 02:27 AM.

My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 71
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Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 71
You can't fix the root problem which is that the person having the problem is already overwhelmed with details. Be friendly and coax information out in bits. I always see these initial interactions play out like this:

The person who is stuck will select a random forum and post...

Q: "HALP. AUDIO NO WORK."

Helper1: "Can you be more specific? Audio interface type? Sample rate? Settings? Screenshots of here, and here and here please?"

Q: "HALP. AUDIO NO WORK. NOBODY CAN HALPS?"

Helper2: "Here's the relevant pages of the manual and some helpful youtube videos..."

I know this because I've been all of these people at various times. People here who offer community support have been super friendly to me as I ask the noob questions for the 64k'th time.

Last edited by Warren P; 10/16/23 11:04 AM.

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